The Genius of Bernanke

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Posted by Bobby on 7/19/2010 4:40:44 AM

Just give them a little more rope ....

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Edited.

Posted by Pat Fields on 7/19/2010 6:20:49 AM

At 'SodaHead', a more generalized discussion website I frequent; there is a wide, pronounced disdain for the shortcomings of the Fed and its enormously cavalier use of 'money' during this period of economic upheaval.

While most participants haven't accumulated extensive knowledge of monetary and economic theory, they more often than not, clearly recognize the principal that volume of money expansion (the genuine definition of 'inflation') destroys the value of what they receive for their work and sacrifice to save for their futures.

That realization alone puts them immediately at odds with government's 'rescue' programs, the magnitude of which is revealed in numerous polls. Very large majorities of Americans are four-square against these 'bail-outs' ... more so than I recall during the Reagan Administration's similar episodes. It's being made all too clear among our 'commonality' that governance under either faction is simply handmaiden to the 'moneyed interests' that have vexed our lives for generations.

As is the situation here at DB, a significant education process is ongoing at SodaHead as well, generating surprisingly lucid questioning on economic principals and their effects on daily life from even the more humble of posters. Curiously, that group seems to be largely comprised of home-makers! This is quite encouraging! Mothers are known to have an inordinate influence on the thinking processes of their children! Our future appears brighter than one might otherwise suspect!

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Ah, when the women "get it" - watch out.

Posted by Jeff on 7/19/2010 7:27:18 AM

I would think the banksters just wait for mankind to create pandemonium which were very good at . They're not as smart as one would believe there just great at taking advantage of situations. When they try to create themes it usually becomes an abortion. I really don't think they're any smarter than most.

Posted by Victor Barney on 7/19/2010 8:04:28 AM

Ben Bernanke: The New Maestro? ... : Ben Bernanke undoubtingly is "Illuminati," ironically as our forefather Ben Franklin was too(why our banking system today is what it is, by the way),and it is the goal of the Illuminati to create a "New World Order" under Lucifer, the Elohim of this world and not under our Hebrew Savior Yahshua("Yahweh is Salvation")! It's coming very soon; watch!

Posted by Don Reinke on 7/19/2010 8:09:54 AM

No one ever mentions the fact that right after Bernake took over, he raised interest rates a quarter point for almost 18 straight months, never giving the economy to catch up. What it did do was expose all the sub-prime lending tied to the prime, not to mention everybody else tied to the prime

Reply from the Daily Bell:

You are right. No one does. And it gives rise to larger questions ...

Posted by Weeble on 7/19/2010 8:20:43 AM

I predicted the audit the fed would reach a watery grave, as well as Rand Paul's failure (maybe a Scott Brown style failure), and the tea party inviting everyone in for a virtual cuppa, among other seemingly facile predictions yet to become history, rather than prediction based on human action. Make sure the pinkie is raised and you're in! (Bernanke has the wrong finger up, so he's out!)

Funnily enough, I made a previous comment that women need to be on side for anything to happen. But the men put ideas in their heads (it is then the woman's idea, so it can be acted upon). Maybe being married over 20 years, and the compromises made as a result of true bonding for life helps in peeling the layers of the Temet Nosche onion.

Ah, the coracle we boat around in takes us past the same landscapes. Maybe we are on a lake, not an ocean. We paddle left, paddle right and go nowhere, but the internet, as you say is a fountain (or waterfall) of information on "coracle paddling for dummies".

Click to View Link/

On another note, I went to sodahead and tried to comment, but it wanted me to register. I did so, but after 5 minutes, it is still trying to see my IP address! It must really care who I am. Oh, it just finished. Stopped at the door. No soda for me, I guess, I will read and keep my mouth shut then. No soda jokes.

Great article. I am amused how much you like the "toolkit" term. It is a good one. Don't tell them they left a pipe wrench in the tarp over there. When they finally pull it off and reveal the the IMF statue of "world liberty" dollar, it will spin wildly, careen though the air and whack 'em on the temple.

Posted by Terry Haney on 7/19/2010 9:14:08 AM

Sorry Weeble. I am sure your are a very intelligent person,but your posts appear incoherent to me. If you could take a little less literary licence, I suspect that we agree. I just can't make sense of what you are getting at. No offense intended.

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Listen to Terry, Weeble.

Posted by Tony Simon on 7/19/2010 9:21:58 AM

Your photo of Bernanke shows him raising the wrong finger. A subtle form of PR?

Posted by Dogster on 7/19/2010 9:59:17 AM

Everybody knows that inflation is bad, but can't seem to prove it.

If you know a bit about calculus, I have posted an equation, based on the standard quantity theory of money pQ = mV, which proves that Ponzi investment crowds out investment in the real economy. In other words, inflation causes real investment to decay as a product of inflation and time.

I have posted this at Click to View Link/

If you seem an error in this derivation, I would welcome your comment. No trolling, please. Thank you.

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Thanks for posting.

Posted by Dave Redick on 7/19/2010 10:04:09 AM

Give us a break, AGAIN, you start with a long quote without attribution up front, then a minor flag at the end ' ' Wall Street Journal' without date, etc. Your loyal readers read a lot of stuff, so PLEASE help us by putting your 'quoted from' info at the begining of a quote, so we don't have to skip to the end, then back, to properly interpret the quote. (or miss the italics and think it's your views).

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Dave, cut and paste the first few words into any search engine and you will find the article within ten seconds. Our style exists and won't change, sorry.

Posted by John Acord on 7/19/2010 10:12:33 AM

@Reinke

What is obvious is the chain of events that commenced with the elevation of Bernanke to "control" of the US economy. As you point out, the first was the rise in interest rates that began the unraveling of the subprime crisis. This was followed by the "inexplicable" explosion in oil prices with the Bush Administration (Actually Goldman's Paulson) claiming it was all the result of supply and demand as the world economies were demanding more oil than was available and the Saudi's calmly pointing out it was a result of speculators acting together.

We now know it was speculation that undermined the US economy, drained consumers of their surplus incomes and undermined their confidence in the economy. With the two blows to the belly the stage was set to deliver the subprime and real estate crisis knockout. All of this was staged during a critical Presidential election.

The illusion was painted of Paulson, Bernanke and Geithner putting together a program to rescue the mortgage market. The naive Bush and the Congress were told it was necessary to save the US real estate market. Then, after the trillion was voted the money was diverted to the big banks and AIG.

Cleverly, Goldman received hundreds of billions both directly and indirectly and did not lose a sou on any trade while their competitors Lehman and Bear Sterns were wiped out of existence and the rest severely weakened. Bernanke mollified the banksters by allowing them to borrow at 0% interest from the Fed and buy Treasuries for 3%. Yes, they restored their balance sheets but at the expense of the middle class taxpayer.

The power elite launched their scheme to confiscate the trillions of dollars of middle class savings during the election precisely because they knew their manufactured crisis would cause the election of either Obama or Clinton. They knew this administration would launch several campaigns that would cover up their activities, take the heat off them, and that they could manipulate the outcomes.

The theft was carried out in plain site, yet not a single grand jury has been empaneled to investigate the transparent frauds that caused our economic demise. Goldman pays 550 million dollar fine, pockets hundreds of billions in loot and the next day its stock rises in value by 4 billion.

We now await their next move in the emasculation of the US's economy. Paul Craig Robert described the private interests, i.e., power elite, which control the political and economic process, but failed to name names. Its time we understand that the world is being ruined by an evil Sanhedrin that laughs at us naive little workers as it plans its next gargantuan theft of our labor and innovation.

Exactly, what can we do about it? While I love our good editors at the Bell, I do not think the gentle glove of libertarianism will be of help in the face of such focused evil as we face today. I feel like I'm in a 1920's Berlin cafe speaking to refugees from Bolshevism and deciding who might be best to protect my family and I from their ravages. That is the decision we will all have to make very soon. I'm sure their will be any number of demagogues proposing every avenue from turning the cheek to class warfare.

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/19/2010 10:38:09 AM

@ Dogster

Your proof is only as good as the input assumptions (not). Try starting from basic facts with zero assumptions, such as with "Mathematics of Rule" whose only assumption is: "you cannot get something from nothing " no mystical free lunch":

Click to View Link

Of course, the PTB's exist by assuming there is "something from nothing" and, we the people have foolishly traded real goods and services in exchange for lies, misrepresentations and fake make work programs (falsely promising Utopia, or to smite those falsely accused of causing harm) for far too long.

If you want to prove inflation (printing presses running amok, debasing currency) is harmful, Mathematics of Rule already does it, when you additionally consider the hysteresis (dictionary may be required) involved with time.

In essence, the PTB's insist (legal tender laws) that all transactions must involve their fake money. When new currency is printed, the debasement is not instantaneous. It takes the market time to discount the value of a new currency unit. During this time, those who first acquire the newly minted currency enjoy purchasing power at the old value at the cost of the new value of money. In this way, prosperity is moved from those who have previously earned it (producers) to those who have printed it for whatever reasons (finance bloated states, wars, private purposes " bailing out crooks, etc).

Since resources have been stolen from the productive, to benefit the un-productive, the motivational economics (from the perspective of producers) have further shifted away from productivity towards defense, on a trajectory towards total and outright revolution (against thieves / slavers). This is the nature of the harm of inflation " it destroys civilization (the rules by which we peacefully cooperate for MUTUAL self-interest).

From a more individual, parochial point of view, assuming you are honest: Whatever financial (currency denominated) resources you may have, they were achieved by using your freedom of association to trade and contract on your terms, in exchange for financial remuneration. When the REAL value (what can be purchased in goods and services) of past remuneration is on a downward trajectory (inflation), the agreed terms of trade has been breached and, you have been defrauded.

Baby boomers and their wealth and retirement savings is too tempting a target for the criminals in control. They intend to get it by inflation, war, bailouts of their cronies, and fake (doomed to fail) grand socialism endeavors such as entitlement expansion...

Will we, the people tolerate this and let them?

Stay tuned...

Posted by Ichabod on 7/19/2010 10:38:34 AM

The most absurd theme to rear it's ugly head is this one: "more debt equals more wealth."

So if I take a 100% loan on my house which has no mortgage at present, I will double my wealth. Then I'll leave a wonderful inheritance to my children and grandchildren. A debt to wealth ratio of 100%. The covenant view finds this hysterically funny.

What surprises me most of all is that anyone could take this seriously. Krugman is getting sillier and sillier. But I see hope on the horizon and it may have come via the World Cup finals: Spain beat Germany.

While living in Europe I began to understood from the locals that they fully recognize the different "mentalities" of their neighboring countries. And now Germany will have to bailout Spain and they aren't going to like it at all.

Spain shuts down after lunch unless times have changed. Do business in the morning. Relax after lunch and hit the streets for a delayed dinner around 10pm. Wait for the "holidays" to arrive when Spain fills with tourists spending money to have some days in the sun again. In Holland when the sun briefly comes out, so do the photographers to take pictures of flowers and windmills. The Dutch head for the sun on holliday.

Could the cup save us? Asia and Europe are taking a different path. The US should take notice and focus on honest money before the dollar disappears. It isn't difficult for people to recognize debt doesn't increase wealth. But I'm not hearing answers from the Republican leadership yet.

Posted by Weeble on 7/19/2010 10:57:29 AM

Sigh, back to the drawing board. Maybe I should stop looking ideas up in the fictionary. My wife Lucid, I call her Lucy for obvious reasons, is very pragmatic. I will get her blessing on all posts from here on in. We will call it "the inbox committee".

My theme was water, tea, and rising up from, as in The Statue Of Libertea.

...As well as the funny, difficult to control boat, the coracle. Watch this funny 3:17 youtube video. Click to View Link

My intelligence has been levelled, like the best of 'em. Maybe I am a poor cousin to the Coracle Of Delphi.

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Now that was funny.

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/19/2010 11:13:35 AM

@Weeble

"My intelligence has been levelled..."

Mistake #1: Accepting the judgment of others, rather than the facts.

I would say the jury is still out, but, IMHO, at a minimum, it appears "your communication has been levelled". Occasionally, such as 2nd post above you appear totally incoherent and in an intellectual space occupied solely by you, with no common reference to us mere Bell mortals.

So, if you want us to appreciate your reality, at a minimum, communicate using common (or define) terms. THINK about it:

Click to View Link

Posted by Jg on 7/19/2010 11:32:13 AM

More proof of the gutlessness and lap-dog mentality of the 'weakstream' media was in Gerald Celente's latest report, which cites the following study out of Harvard:

"...This new study examines how waterboarding has been discussed by America's four largest newspapers over the past 100 years, and finds that the technique, almost invariably, was unequivocally referred to as "torture" " until the U.S. Government began openly using it and insisting that it was not torture, at which time these newspapers obediently ceased describing it that way..."

While the study is 22 pages, if you just read the abstract on page two, you'll get a fine summary of the paper.

Click to View Link

Keep up the good work, folks!

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Thank you. Sad that people are so frightened ...

Posted by Weeble on 7/19/2010 11:54:45 AM

Bill, self-deprecation is is funny. People do it all the time. You should try it. I choose to not deprecate others anymore, as it leads to enemies, and we don't need those here.

"My intelligence has been levelled, like the best of 'em" means absolutely nothing! I planned it that way. It was merely a reflection of Sci-Fi levelling that DB mentioned a while ago.

I find levelling an interesting concept. DB makes me think, rather than judge based on my existing possibly "levelled" prejudgments.

I said "maybe" before accepting their judgment. That is miles away from "accepting." (oh no, more garbage from weeble?)

I'm too busy right now, but I will follow Dogster's link tonight. I have not spun a graph on a Y axis in many years; it will be a wild ride, with a large volume of sweet liquid inside, I hope. I can't wait!

Put your bet on #1 and it comes up every time (Jethro Tull, Thick As A Brick).

Posted by John Mahler on 7/19/2010 12:03:55 PM

The only threadbare and hackneyed argument about Chairman Bernanke and the FED twelve western bank cartel is:

1) The FED has replaced England and King George

2) Americans have finally, as President Jefferson so aptly predicted, become chattel feeding forced tribute to the FED which has replaced gold as backing for fiat bank notes

3) Under the treachery of Dodd & Frank America has no hope of ever freeing itself from the chains of serfdom

4) By the recent treachery of POTUS Obama there is no such thing as a free market.

5) Bound hand and foot bailing out corporate America by forced tribute American consumers and small business cannot increase demand for GDP or produce GDP.

THIS IS THE EVERLASTING TRUTH OF THE DISOBEDIENCE OF CONGRESS REGARDING THE CONSTITUTIONAL REQUIREMENT THAT IT ALONE BE AMERICA'S ONLY MONEY GUARDIAN AND THAT ONLY GOLD BE MONEY. HAVING PUT A PRIVATE CORPORATION OF BANKERS IN CHARGE OF AMERICA'S LEGAL TENDER, CONGRESS BETRAYED THE REVOLUTION SEPARATING AMERICA FROM CORPORATE PYTHONS IN ENGLAND TO WHOM WE AGAIN ARE ENSLAVED. THIS IS THE THREADBARE ARGUMENT!

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Caps off, please.

Posted by Weeble on 7/19/2010 12:06:28 PM

Bill, please do not take offense at my quote from the first ever theme album, Thick As A Brick. It was merely as a reference to prime numbers, Fibonacci, and Phi, as well as phi. Everything starts with 1. It is our job to make it 2, then 3, then....you know.

Now I'm going to rule the world! (Pinky And The Brain). Again, no offense.

Posted by Bill on 7/19/2010 12:13:09 PM

I cannot believe Bernanke works alone in a vacuum. He is surrounded by an elite brain trust that is hell bent on maintaining their status quo regardless of the consequences to the rest of their countrymen. Greed is alive and well.

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/19/2010 12:22:15 PM

@Weeble

"Bill, please do not take offense..."

Huh? Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can NEVER hurt me. Blast from a wiser past...

If you want to offend me, there are only two ways: Use force and or fraud against me or mine (I consider civilization to be partly mine, hence, my presence at DB). I consider this an offense requiring a proportional defense, up to and including capital if not remedied. And, woe to those who make this mistake, as they well know...

Now, I just try to share the knowledge gleaned from my experiences. Life is too short for petty spats. If you choose conflict, make sure the stakes are worth the risks...

Posted by Weeble on 7/19/2010 1:06:28 PM

Ah, my Grandma had sayings like that. I love 'em, and use them every day. Good show. She liked my sister more than me, though. I wonder why?

Here's another good one. a song about rhubarb (rubbub).. I hope I do it justice.

In our little garden subbub,
Far away from the noise and hubbub.
If you're tired of the pubbub, tired of the clubbub,
Take a little house in the garden subbub.
There you can grow stewed rubbub,
Bath in an old rain tubbub.
So leave all of the hubbub, the pubbub and the clubbub
And grow your own grubbub in the subbub.

Click to View Link

That link was a keeper for me. And that is what counts in life. Finders keepers.

Posted by Geno on 7/19/2010 1:13:35 PM

alan greenspan=john law

gentle ben, fighting deflation =sweeden sub zero rates now what?

Posted by Beverlee on 7/19/2010 1:22:39 PM

The big power elite money is re-invested now in two things: 1) the chosen banks supported by the Fed (the preferred investment since 1913 -- and why not?), and 2) "Green" no-lose mandated industries supported by the taxpayer on every front. Nothing can stand in the way of profits in these two investment blocks. Not Tea Parties and their candidates, or WikiLeaks, or any other thing. The big money must stay big, if not so bold.

These days I think about the fictional trip that Dagney Taggart and Hank Reardon took around the U.S. toward the end. If one visits nonfictional places today like Campbell, Ohio, location of a former U.S. Steel plant, it is devastating. Trees grow up through the foundations of houses in once-thriving neighborhoods. If the Chinese can make steel cheaper and more efficiently, so be it. Hopefully Americans realize that the Chinese are not magic, far from it. The monetary policy at the Fed and the political protection given unions and others, coupled with 70,000 pages of regulations issued every year (many with criminal incarceration waiting), make many U.S. major industries entirely uncompetitive. Some still survive, but they keep a very low profile.

Bernanke is a tool and, like Greenspan's machinations, the silliness of his policies will be uncovered soon enough, but only after the PE has taken its profit and moved on to the next promotion somewhere. The U.S. will be entirely tapped out shortly and hopefully the PE will leave us alone.

[If Rand could predict the downfall so accurately, why should we doubt the ending?]

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/19/2010 2:54:47 PM

DB: "To attempt to create an atmosphere of credibility around a failed promotion through a declaratory procedure is foolishness"

The elites are "the boy who cried wolf far too often"

In fact, we, the people (OK, the intelligent minority) have adapted so that we will believe nothing from anyone who makes proposals of the following form:

"Because of (claimed social good W or survival threat X) it is necessary for you to make compromise Y or you (or your children) pay cost Z."

The new mantra is becoming: Want something? What are you offering in trade?, the question that our far wiser ancestors demanded a real answer to that resulted in governments REALLY being "public servants".

In the last century , governments have found it "necessary" (Machiavelli, falsely framed arguments) to rationalize themselves from servant (employees, to be hired and fired by whim) to partner to our owners and masters.

The key to unwinding all of this is: That is THEIR opinion. It is our CHOICE whether we believe / obey them.

Posted by Ryan B on 7/19/2010 4:18:00 PM

So I've been reading the Bell for about a year now and wanted to seek a point of clarification. The Fed doesn't ACTUALLY print the money, the Treasury Dept. does...correct? The Fed is just in charge of telling the Treasury when and how much. I've noticed that in all these articles about the Fed and their influence, that particular point gets glossed over (the only reason I know this now is I lost a bet over this issue). Keep leaving the lights on for the masses, DB! Much thanks for your service.

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Circa 2007 ...

Click to View Link

How much paper currency does the Treasury Department print every day? Where is it printed?

During fiscal year 2007, the Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) produced approximately 38 million notes a day with a face value of approximately $750 million.

More Money Facts

The BEP headquarters is located in Washington, DC. There is also a Western Currency located in Fort Worth, Texas, which began operations in 1991.

Posted by Pat Fields on 7/19/2010 6:34:49 PM

@ Beverlee

Cite: "The big power elite money is re-invested now in two things: ... banks ... and "Green" ... industries ... Nothing can stand in the way ... Not Tea Parties and their candidates, or WikiLeaks, or any other thing."

Not really being a tremendously religious fellow, I nevertheless find indispensible life lessons and practical guidance in Biblical passages. Relevant to your lament ... 'If ye had but the faith of a mustard seed.' and 'Render unto Caesar ...' come to mind.

If The Peoples decided to unilaterally resume their inter-personal trade in specie, based ONLY on weight and fineness of metal, they would immediately free themselves from BOTH the Politicos AND the Banksters.

All of the Politicos' so-called 'laws' are written to control trade in Dollars (Pounds, Rubles, Yuan, etc.) ... NOT in grains or ounces of metals. Where no specified 'official' currency is involved in an exchange, there is no legal jurisdiction to interpose ANY authorized control over it. If a community of folks with the necessary skill sets and tooling decided to 'go independent', there really isn't anything ANYone can do, short of armed subjugation, to prevent them from doing it. A few preliminaries, like setting up a separate power grid and pre-arrangement of critical supply agreements might be necessary, but the WILL is the crucial ingredient.

People did this all across Europe during the Dark Ages and it can be done again, preserving all our current technologies, if people will simply ... do it.

Our country is NOT 'tapped out' and the 'elites' will NEVER leave us alone as long as we remain psychologically dependent on their Plantation Scrip, because the SINGLEMOST VALUABLE asset we have to be stolen from us is our LABOR!

Posted by Mike on 7/19/2010 8:19:33 PM

Bernanke couldn't run a hot dog stand without screwing it up, yet due to the monopoly of power that the organization, he represents, holds; he is heralded as a genius.When history is written on this sad chapter of our country, readers will wonder why the people were so stupid and apathetic as to tolerate such frauds.

Posted by SP on 7/19/2010 8:38:56 PM

Thanks for helping me see the light. When explained it become so clear like everything in life, one you understand how to ride a bike it so easy and you never forget. A big fan of the posts on the DB. Enjoyed the banter with Mr Wibble today.

Posted by Sean Allison on 7/19/2010 9:23:09 PM

@ Pat Fields:

Here Here Pat! Very good!

That is exactly a part of "you are as free as you are responsible."

And if you can't get anyone one to do it with you, then do it yourself. Fear not, just do it.

I always marveled how easily americans gave up their gold for fiat at FDR's behest. There was a real naivete it seems. Hopefully this is changing thanks to the internet and places like our dear old bell.

Posted by Pat Fields on 7/19/2010 9:33:28 PM

@ Bill Ross

Cite: "In essence, the PTB's insist (legal tender laws) that all transactions must involve their fake money."

Your statement isn't exactly correct my Friend. An offer to transact on a 'dollar' price basis must transpire in FRN's ... when they're counter-offered. A transaction 'priced' in ounces of say, nickel however, absent ANY relation to 'dollars', is NOT subject to 'legal tender', but ounces of nickel ONLY.

Posted by Rolland Carpenter on 7/19/2010 11:02:59 PM

The Fed appears to have been the greatest contributor to the ongoing "Bailout for Billionaires". We heard Bernake tell us the Fed more than doubled its "Balance Sheet". The near worthless paper was exchanged for real money at its "notional value". The Fed's quick action allowed Hank Paulson to redirect his $700 Billion provided to purchase "toxic assets". It appears that over One Trillion Dollars was given away under Bernake's direction. We have seen the federal deficit soar, and are now told Social Security benefits must be cut.

Posted by Weeble on 7/19/2010 11:17:17 PM

SP, thanks, I guess. The best part was when Bill Ross prompted me to remember the song my Grandma used to sing to my sister; I would listen from afar. She had a queen's English (upper class) accent, combined with a high pitched Parkinson's style of singing, that made it sound like she was doing a speedy 2 hand chop-chop massage of her throat whenever she sang. Quite an act, I must say. A Command Performance, so to speak. But I digress. I need to buckle down and stay with the "DB economics" program. She lived off her late husband's highly successful Sheffield Silver company and the resultant share dividends till she was a ripe old age. Whatever happened to dividends? Oh yeah, the PE took them down a notch, so buylow / sellhigh speculation rules and HFT end of day melt-up algos wipes out those possible gains too. Casino Royale or what?

I noticed an "sp" (spelling mistake). I am Weeble. Wibble sounds like dribble. I only dribble when I don't need my tri-polar medication anymore. Are spelling mistakes your trademark?

Posted by Weeble on 7/19/2010 11:38:10 PM

Bill, I just noticed a premise that you made that begs for comment.

"Your proof is only as good as the input assumptions (not). Try starting from basic facts with zero assumptions, such as with "Mathematics of Rule" whose only assumption is: "you cannot get something from nothing " no mystical free lunch"

If a person plucks some bluebells up from a sun mottled forest, bunches them up in his (or her) hands, then walks to the market and sells them with a smile for a couple of bucks, then that would constitute something from nothing. No inputs except labour.

If Archimedes sits at a river and asks himself "how do I get the water up there to irrigate that useless piece of land" and proceeds to draw a diagram, then sells it repeatedly at market, then no-one is screwed on that deal. No inputs except labour.

If a person.... (to the power of n).

Click to View Link

Posted by AmanfromMars on 7/20/2010 1:24:02 AM

I would wholeheartedly agree with the wonderfully wacky Weeble in questioning the validity of Bill's premise ..."Bill, I just noticed a premise that you made that begs for comment.

"Your proof is only as good as the input assumptions (not). Try starting from basic facts with zero assumptions, such as with "Mathematics of Rule" whose only assumption is: "you cannot get something from nothing " no mystical free lunch""

Especially whenever it is generally universally accepted/posited that In the Beginning was there nothing .... and then a Big Bang ..... and now is there everything.

Although that may be just Imagination spinning a Yarn and we are all just figments of IT and All is just a Sum of Thoughts Shared in Order to be Future Realised?

Thus is Life a Virtual Reality with Imagination Leading the Way.

Posted by Clayton on 7/20/2010 5:22:17 AM

When I first looked at your photo of Big Ben, I thought he was pointing to the recovery. But after a day of visiting empty retail venues today, I guess not. So, what is he looking at? What does Fuzzy Face see? Is he seeing what I see?

What am I seeing?

Tonight I went to a Campaign 4 Liberty (C4L) get together in San Francisco. It was well populated by middle-aged Baby Boomers. It ended sufficiently early for all of us to make it home in time to get to bed with enough sleep to face yet another day of "the Grind." This has become the routine for the mid 40's, 50's and 60's crowd. As I was walking back up the street (Sacramento Street, between Sansome and Battery), I noticed a new restaurant, The Wayfarers Inn. So, I thought I would give some leeway to my curiosity and go on in and have a cocktail and check it out.

I was at least 30 years older than the average patron and at least 20 years younger than anyone else in the place. Gen X may be spending, but the Boomers are in a hunker down mode. I look pretty fit for my age, and putting on my "natural" charm, I hustled up some conversation from the young couples at the bar.

Yes, their parents spoiled them completely and now have to pay down the mortgages they took out to do so. Their children are well dressed, at least in this place, and happily imbibing $15.00 pinots to wash down their $30 plates of oysters.

If the consumer is key to the recovery, we will be looking for Gen X to show the way. The problem is that there are relatively few of them. They were buying wine by the glass (not the bottle). And everybody was paying by credit card. I was the only person that I saw who paid with bills, not plastic.

If somebody could get the "Chairman" out here in the Real World for a few shots, perhaps he could see what is so plain to the rest of us. The Boomers must now save as best they can for their soon to be old age and retirement. In real terms, they are way behind and terribly dependent on out sized stock market gains to make up for the deficiency in interest on their savings.

In the future, they are likely to end up, as we used to call them when I was in the retail bond sale business, "Yield Whores." What happens to them in the end is not much more attractive than what happens to a two bit hooker. (I could tell the reader stories, but it is too late at night, but at some later time, I will reveal all the shocking detail that will confirm what many have suspected already).

The Boomer Consumer will not lead the Economy out of the Great Recession, it will be the Investor and paradoxically, the Saver. This will not happen until the tax laws have been changed to favor savings and investment, which means not to favor consumption. This will require a dramatic shift in Time Preference. Such momentous changes in public psychology usually take an entire generation too come about, and I cannot see why this time it should be different.

Benny Bright will have to wait until 2016/7 to see a bottom and 2030 before another peak in confidence and valuations. If he sticks that big finger of his in his mouth and then puts it out into the air of the Real Economy, he will feel for himself how becalmed it all is, and how stupid and counter-productive it would be for him to force the matter, even if it meant foregoing the acquisition of some puffed-up reputation of Sir World Saver.

We have to maintain some faint hope that even a first class self-inflated fake, like Bernanke, is capable of epiphany, like Saul on the Road to Tarsus. But that is distinctly different than expecting it

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/20/2010 7:52:13 AM

@Pat Fields

"Your statement isn't exactly correct my Friend."

Agree that you can barter in commodities and, make a profit (in commodities) without the intervening abstraction of currency. This is between mutually consenting parties, contracting in mutual self-interest.

BUT, , you have an unwanted "partner", the tax man will come a'sniffing and insist (guns poised to steal your property) that, for the purpose of taxation, all transactions be translated to the "value" in terms of fiat currency so they can calculate what you "owe". They will only accept fiat currency in payment, so, you must sell a significant portion of your commodity hoard for fiat currency, or have ALL of your property seized either outright or by "due procees" in a futile attempt of defense from those who survive by you losing.

Shylock will have his "pound of flesh" and, it will be according to Shylock's terms.

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/20/2010 8:06:27 AM

@Weeble, AmanfromMars

"then that would constitute something from nothing. No inputs except labour."

You guys are too rich. Is labor (expenditure of time and energy equals life) not REAL (measurable)? Come and work for me, at zero cost to myself and, according to you, zero cost to you.

And then, to evoke the "Big Bang" theory (informed SPECULATION, not fully proven) as proof of the "fact" that there is "something from nothing" is too rich. LOL. Elites have you intellectually just where they want you.

There is not a day that goes by that does not re-confirm (to me) the immensity of the task of re-aligning our civilization with proven fact and reason, bringing about Reanaissence II and avoiding Dark Age II.

Posted by Weeble on 7/20/2010 9:45:28 AM

Bill, I said quite clearly "no inputs except labour". Labour is an input. My labour is mine, not to give but to sell. My labour is either mental or physical. You will get mine as a gift this time only. After this, it is $100 per hour. I was only trying to alert you to a false premise leading to fallacious reasoning.

I stopped working for someone else yeas ago and bought a business. I now work for 1000 people. How ironic.

My current probem is that I do not want to create too much (on the books) profit in my business right now, due to governmental rules and global take-backs that make it "wasted effort". This internal septic shock that I am forcing on myself to starve the machine is a double edge sword, a I may be too successful at it; unintentionally.

You are preaching to the converted.

Who is John Galt?

Posted by AmanfromMars on 7/20/2010 10:00:38 AM

Speaking as I can for only myself, Bill Ross, would I inform you that you have a lot to learn about everything, and I would wish you well on the journey, for it is well worth taking.

"Elites have you intellectually just where they want you." .... Reverse-engineering their failed Control Meme and Positing an Alternative Power Program from the FailSafe Security of a Virtual Space Place would surprise me as being anywhere near where they would be at, but it would be most welcome for they are certainly invited.

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/20/2010 10:01:15 AM

@Weeble

"I was only trying to alert you to a false premise leading to fallacious reasoning"

I must be "thick as a brick", what is the "false premise" and, how can you state this while simultaneously stating "You are preaching to the converted" and explaining exactly how you are using the principles in "Mathematics Of Rule" to "starve the leech"?

Maybe you can ask your wife Lucid to translate from WeebleSpeak?

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/20/2010 10:46:48 AM

@AmanfromMars

"would I inform you that you have a lot to learn"

Of course, reality is infinite. I as a mere mortal with finite experiences and perceptions and inadequate language tools to express myself have, by the nature of existence, a lot to learn.

That is what is so wonderful about life. If you think about it, boredom and lack of worthwhile things to do is impossible.

However, a "lot to learn" does not mean that what I KNOW and can prove is invalid. It remains valid until proven wrong. And, I do not argue in terms of "proving a negative", a logical impossibility in a realty that has not yet been fully explored. I argue in terms of "proving positives", based on evidence at hand.

So, to be influenced, evidence and counter-examples MANDITORY, like any REAL scientist (as opposed to charlatans, prostituting their degrees, which should be revoked).

Off topic: innocent until proven guilty MEANS until factual evidence is at hand. Meaning, the law once acknowledged "cannot prove a negative – innocence, can only prove guilt"

This is how I interpret your reply: I do not know it all, so what I do know is suspect, to be discounted. By this reasoning, how can anyone know anything, a false belief that elites depend on so we give them "the benefit of a doubt" and are paralyzed by indecision regarding whether a firm stand should be taken?

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/20/2010 11:13:02 AM

The last paragraph above is one of the prime fallacies that elites use in a futile attempt to neuter division of labor in the intellectual realm which the internet is doing such a stellar job of countering.

It is no accident that anyone expressing a firm opinion (right or wrong) is considered as arrogant and antisocial, a target for the herd to vent their emotional frustrations on for daring to prick their comfortable bubbles of ignorance. Ask Galileo and others whose blood and sacrifice has resulted in acceptance of what little we do know. No, I do not consider myself worthy to be considered part of such greats, but, insist they not be forgotten and rationalized away. We OWE them.

Posted by GWBramhall on 7/20/2010 11:26:11 AM

The point being made here is seconded by the Obama administration's attempt to convince us that the stimulus is working in the face of 9.5% unemployment. They point to the invisible jobs that have been saved and how much further the economy could have tanked.

The negativity of the average American is not only spurred on by this administration that wants us to swallow this crap, but by the reality that all the damage they have done to the economy will
not be easily undone even with a massive Rebublican victory in
November.

There is no way they are going to repeal the Health
bill or allow the Bush tax cut to remain. The Cap and Trade bill
will be the last straw that will break the back of the American
ecconomy if the Financial Industry bill they just passed hasn't
aleady done the deed. No wonder there are trillions of dollars
sitting on the sidelines that are not being used productively by
the business community when there are endless mandates and taxes looming in the future with litterally no governor to reign it in. Elections are supposed to have consequences but how can we expect to get out from under what they have dumped on us?

Posted by Weeble on 7/20/2010 11:49:06 AM

Bill Ross, sorry about my spelling mistakes. I was rushing to get back to work at the time. I ran my post past my wife, Lucy, and she only had one question requiring clarification: "who is John Galt?" I plonked down the almost 1000 page Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged" diatribe, and said: "it is in there".

She searched the web for 10 seconds and produced her comment on on the issue we have been discussing:

Master Po: Close your eyes. What do you hear?

Young Caine: I hear the water, I hear the birds.

Po: Do you hear your own heartbeat?

Caine: No.

Po: Do you hear the grasshopper which is at your feet?

Caine: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?

Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

Click to View Link

Now speechless, I wondered if the "inbox committee" was such a good idea. I think we have been married too long.

I am not converted to your Mathematics of Rule concept. I was merely trying to scrape away the bark from the base of the mathematical tree of rules, so you would think again on what you believe to be true.

With respect to the false premise, this is what you wrote:

"Your proof is only as good as the input assumptions (not). Try starting from basic facts with zero assumptions, such as with "Mathematics of Rule" whose only assumption is: "you cannot get something from nothing " no mystical free lunch"

The false premise is that you have no input assumptions, but you have one, which is that you cannot get something from nothing, which you can*.

*Caveat: I will not get into philosophy at this point, as it may get mistaken for sophistry."

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/20/2010 2:30:34 PM

Sorry Weeble, your point IS sophistry.

I assume (due to lack of evidence) that there is "no such thing as something from nothing" and, therefore, in my equations do not account for the "mystical X factor", production from nothing.

I say a factor does not exist, which by ALL evidence available is TRUE. So, no assumption, FACT. The only reason that I used the "assumption" word is, the only possible refutation attempt (and basis of competing economic "theories") is the assumption that "something from nothing" (mysticism) is possible.

How's that perpetual motion machine working out for you?

If "something from nothing" were possible, would we be quibbling / complaining about those who STEAL from us? Why would they bother, with manna from heaven? No, we / they would just get more costless "something from nothing" and proceed on our paths, oblivious to reality.

Posted by Victor Barney on 7/20/2010 3:10:13 PM

"The Genius of Bernanke": Yeah, right! This man is "Illuminati" and represents the "New World Order" banking system under Lucifer! Don't worry that we're idiots Ben; soon is coming your "cashless society," Watch!

Posted by Williamq on 7/20/2010 7:52:50 PM

Outstanding article! I would not, however, declare success until the results of the US midterm elections are in. Remember the experience of Nazi Germany. Kudos on recognizing that discrediting the promotions of the elite is the only hope. In that respect, let me suggest that our history has been rewritten far more than we recognize.

Until every issue of this revision is met with proper original documentation revealing the revision, the truth has little chance in the public square. A good place to start might be:

Click to View Link

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Thanks for the link ...

Posted by Weeble on 7/20/2010 9:58:42 PM

@ Bill Ross

I have been pondering how to properly reply to you all afternoon and evening. You are a cunning linguist, that is true, but a credibility issue is looming, and since I have none (of my own volition), the remainder of the loss will go you, and I am sure you pride yourself on your rock solid reputation.

Something out of something is possible. Nothing out of something is possible. But it takes a slightly warped mind to prove that something out of nothing is possible. This is an experiment to see if I can prove it, and I need a willing mind to prove me wrong.

You are actually spot-on with your comment that I am an over-unity device. It would unwise to continue insulting and goading me so, as you will get a double-up every time I choose to do that, which is rare, as people usually stop far short of where we are today. I put your initial words in abeyance, as it was too early to pull the gloves off.

So now the gloves are off. I have carefully placed them in my drawer. Thunk.

Posted by AmanfromMars on 7/21/2010 2:44:08 AM

"Something out of something is possible. Nothing out of something is possible. But it takes a slightly warped mind to prove that something out of nothing is possible. This is an experiment to see if I can prove it, and I need a willing mind to prove me wrong." ... Posted by Weeble on 7/20/2010 9:58:42 PM

:-) A number of other minds to prove it right with you, would render a whole new and completely different perception and/or interpretation to what may be popularly negatively accepted of one when exercising with slightly warped minds, for such may be a considerably better developed reasoning, especially if information processing skills are defaulted to FailSafe Harmless Constructive and Mutually Beneficial.

And this little gem, gifted and Posted by Bill Ross on 7/20/2010 2:30:34 PM ..... "I assume (due to lack of evidence) that there is "no such thing as something from nothing" and, therefore, in my equations do not account for the "mystical X factor", production from nothing." ... is also tackled head-on here, .... Click to View Link ..... and would reasonably lead one to contrary assumptions and wholly different conclusions.

Posted by Jeff on 7/21/2010 2:45:20 AM

I am an Australian and I am amazed about the way all the financial commentators tiptoe around the "J"word. You are all afraid to use the word Jewish in connection with the FED, American media control, governmental influence (Rahm Emmanuel, Tim Geitner and a 100 others. The Zionistas have the country by the balls and they are damaging America. Have some guts and be prepared to be called anti-Semitic when you expose the truth.

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Does this work for you? "Vanunu Jailed by Evil Jews?"

Click to View Link

Posted by Weeble on 7/21/2010 7:01:29 AM

@ AmanfromMars

My foray into lucidity has been fraught with pitfalls, as I find it difficult to ignore humourous parallels in life. And the things people say... I have learned a lot in the past week about staying on DB track and not including too many other concepts, as they are difficult to digest for some, and actually obnoxious to others. I also put in more links so people can see what I see a little better.

Now, lucidity beats "SCADA & AI" terminology too, as it is truly tough to navigate. My background is at a much more shallow LAN level and a little WAN level, but not so much in the cloud. Your recent lucidity is quite excellent and refreshing. There is too much babble to digest in the cow's 4 stomachs as they ruminate in the field, as mentioned previously, so a trip to their abattoir is highly unlikely.

If I were to tear out page one of my philosophy of life and stick it up on the cork board of the internet, it would read as follows: "If you stare at evil too long without the odd Mars bar, then you will have trouble working, resting and playing".

You sure were on the UHF channel in the recent past, as well as today. You are one clever little Martian. You quickly diagnosed the illness with Uncle Martin, to ensure the antennae were not discovered by The Police Chief. Remember the episode when there were like 4 quadrillion tiny Martian dots all over his body, so it was obvious he was not Uncle Martin?) Hat's off to you. Oops, the antennae are showing!

Click to View Link

Something out of nothing is a noble position to prove, and was stumbled upon quite accidentally. If you care to have a Pokemon battle, I will check in for a couple of days. Maybe this will evolve! At least Bernanke is good for something.

PS: I got this ready @ Cape Canaveral last night, but held off as I knew you would be coming in for a perfect re-entry. Great link. I liked the wikiparadox at the top, but alas, I am driving. Later. Listen to Genesis, Lamb Lies Down, Fly On A Windshield, and pity the people that do not notice they are being vapourized by an A-bomb. So sad. We must all help to make the blind see again. Where are you all? This thread could be Fibonacci-like.

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/21/2010 7:01:30 AM

So, the mystics are flushed out. The wasteful path of this "debate" is quite predictable. Here's how you lose:

a) Concede the general point that, in an infinite (not fully explored) reality, anything, including "something from nothing", is possible. The veracity of the logical proposition becomes a matter of probabilities.

b) As a reminder of how we got here, I was quite specific in how the "no such thing as something from nothing" fact / assumption was to be used: "There is no such thing as production of real / measurable goods / services with no inputs – from nothing"

c) Mankind, for all of history has been searching for something from nothing: gold from lead (alchemy, we can now do it, at prohibitive nuclear energy costs), political attempts to achieve a free Utopia and, some would say: the intellectual creation of god.

d) Given the significant amount of reality (laws of physics...) we have explored and how much effort has gone into looking for "something from nothing" with ZERO positive evidence, I think it is safe to claim as fact: So far as man's endeavors are concerned, we have not discovered how to tap into "something from nothing" and, so far as our social / economic organization goes, assuming "something from nothing" is an incorrect input assumption to any logical proposition.

e) So, for all practical purposes (choices dealing with reality), there is no such thing as "something from nothing". All choices assuming the converse will be INCORRECT.

I'm beginning to think you guys are trolls, paid to disrupt the achievement of factual consensus, or, at a minimum, are after some perverse self-esteem playing the roles of contrarian (deny facts) "devils advocates"

For those who have got lost in the sophistry, the veracity of the input facts of "Mathematics of Rule" has been challenged, and, I believe, successfully defended:

Click to View Link />

Posted by Weeble on 7/21/2010 7:33:38 AM

And no matter how many times I kindly mention to press the "spacebar" (can you see it?) after your link, then "carriage return", you still continue to give us broken links. And you were the "one" to give Kudos to DB for joining the present day!

I am well aware of the laws of thermodynamics. Maybe you should pick up a thermal, but you need to leave your fortress here, as it weighs over 35lb (first law of bird flight.)

Thunk, thunk.

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/21/2010 7:39:01 AM

Click to View Link

Link above worked for me. Ahhh, change the topic, evasive maneuver #33972-b.

It's not about you Weeble, its about the TRUTH (which will set ALL of us FREE)

Posted by Weeble on 7/21/2010 8:09:32 AM

See, I have almost cured you of your CapsLock inflection problem. Good show.

Maybe you should go join Fatbeard helping him with his Brownian Motion in Liquids experiment.

I told you that double-up is one of the benefits of an over-unity device. I have about 1, 2, 3, no, 5 derisive comments all tugging at my shirtsleeve, all saying ooh me, me first.

Please stop.

And thank you for giving me such a great paradoxical idea. And thanks for fixing the link problem. Love the Twirling Nazi avatar or whatever you call it. Very pretty.

Please do not respond to this message, as the next one will have no reply. It will be as if you re not there and talking to yourself. OK, throw one right back at me then (you know you wanna). I will chuckle, then not respond.

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/21/2010 8:26:34 AM

There's hope of rationality for you yet, Weeble. At least you have the wit to "agree to disagree" when confronted with a, for compassionate arguments sake: stalemate. But, you KNOW. Disillusionment IS a good thing. Reality sets the rules, aligning with it is crucial for survival.

Posted by Weeble on 7/21/2010 8:52:36 PM

@ AmanfromMars:

I accidentally left the tab for the Kung Fu show hanging around on my browser. I scrolled down and found a few interesting ditties:

Quotes from Master Po:

All can know good as good only because there is evil.

Be nothing, and you will have everything to give to others.

Yet, it is eyes which blind the man.

Because a man can see, he does not look.


And a couple from Master Kan:

Avoid rather than check. Check rather than hurt. Hurt rather than maim. Maim rather than kill. For all life is precious and cannot be replaced.

To suppress a truth is to give it force beyond endurance.

Posted by Weeble on 7/22/2010 12:03:19 AM

I was sitting here in deep thought after reading every related feedback about getting "something from nothing". I hoped "SP" was not offended by my glib musing on his (or her) choice of "handle", after he complemented me on my banter. It just reminded me of my early days in school when ervybodie hadd "sp" al ovver there worek, bute mien was freeofem. Saury.

My wife looked over and said "what's wrong, Pookie?" (she calls me such stupid names). I said: "how do you get something from nothing?" She said "you think about it" (absolutely true, just happened).

I previously used the concept of someone having the idea to pick wild bluebells to sell for a few bucks, or Archimedes thinking up the screw idea (gear pump). Now, thinking up a new business venture, or modifying an existing operation to improve it, is merely a thinking process. It can make you money, or lose you money, depending on how you thought it out. If it works out, then the thoughts turning into something tangible is definitely something out of nothing. The human mind is capable of anything.

Another feedbacker, I won't say who, reminded me that the people that run this world do not deserve this position of control and we need to take it back (sometimes using force, yuk). There are all sorts of ways of expressing this phenomenon, such as "The Emperor has no clothes" and other ways, such as "I can't believe this is happening to us" or "what planet am I on; people don't get it!"

So here we are, the people that run the world have created something out of nothing. Control of the world.

It is time I went back to The Screwtape Letters, by CS Lewis, for some ideas on this, as I clearly remember him saying that the human mind has had a lifetime of training and manipulation into the "evil" camp, and it is a very tenuous thread that is holding him there. It doesn't take much to ruin everything and he reverts to the good camp. 911 did it for me about 4 years ago, so I am somewhat of a youngster. I did not speak on the internet until about 3 months ago, and pretty well only on the Daily Bell.

I may be gone for a while on this, most intriguing situation in which I find myself.

I have said it before and I will say it again, "evil" exists and it needs to be there in order to know what "good" is. If you look at the first quote from Master Po above, he said the same thing.

Now, though War Drobe I go ...

Posted by Jeannie Queenie on 7/22/2010 1:52:08 AM

@Monsieurs Ross, Weeble and Manfrommars,

What say all of you that there is no mystical free lunch? Or you can't get something from nada, zilch, zero? Says who? I think I can disprove that theory.

I have been LMHO for you have proven in your tete a tete that you are making much ado about nothing! Thus proving in your repartee that you made 'something', that would be, 'ado', out of nothing!

Further, maybe you never had a mystical free lunch, but I have enjoyed dining on them most my life. As an artist, I know that nothing costs nothing. I don't pay for my ideas or imagination, but the mystical free lunch bar supplies me with lots for nothing.

When I take nothing and turn it into something, I needn't spend a red cent to use intelligence, imagination or even the hard work involved. There is a return in that value creation whether in a painting or a sculpture I have created. You could even apply that to the market when you hit the right stock, buy it cheap and it ends up a ten bagger...now that's what I call getting something for nothing.

Recall the words of JFK, "Some people see things as they are and ask, "why"? We dream of things that never were and ask, "why not?" What can I say, but that the blank canvas is such a turn on! The very act of creativity is a thrill, thus proving what a hell it is for those creative souls under regimes that control and command fidelity to the framers and fools of frightful futility.

In the final analysis guys, something comes from nothing, which comes from something! I leave it to you to judge what it is when something springs from nothing, but which springs from something.

All I know is that I've discovered most of my life, that yes, indeed, the best things in life are free. I hope that my words of wisdom were not all for nothing, for they are free for the taking!

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/22/2010 7:00:25 AM

Aargh...

"thoughts turning into something tangible is definitely something out of nothing"

Are you claiming to be telepathetic? Nothing happens / is created "just by thinking".

Thinking has many work inputs:

a) The efforts of those who discovered language and those who taught you the concepts and methodology, countered by those who seek to subvert intelligence / knowledge.

b) The time and energy you spent at school, an (un)willing victim of indoctrination...

c) etc...

After all of that, if you just think and do not act in the physical world (at least write down your thoughts), you have managed to create nothing out of something. If you use the product of your thoughts to successfully create something REAL, that something has inputs in the physical world and IS NOT from nothing.

The concept that seems to be missed is a FULL accounting of ALL factors contributing to anything REAL. Externalities / cost are glossed over.

The biggest cost that seems to be missed is the time and energy (life) required as inputs to create anything REAL. It is like a mass brainwashing resulting in the general perception that life has ZERO cost / value.

By odd coincidence, this is exactly what predators / slavers would have us believe, so we do not defend that with zero value: life (equals time and energy) and property (equals the result of expending life in trade).

The "something from nothing" false belief is resulting in "nothing from something", the complete and utter destruction of the civilization (the rules by which we cooperate for MUTUAL self-interest) bequeathed by our far wiser ancestors. Events and near future history are / will not be very kind to us.

Posted by Weeble on 7/22/2010 8:03:18 AM

@ Jeannie Queenie

Now I have my 3rd wish, Jean Genie. You really "let yourself go" on that one. Very enlightening, and we are now officially out of the bottle.

Click to View Link

I too, bend light to create.

You are such a prime number. We have 1, 2, now 3.

Next is 5.

Posted by Bill Ross on 7/22/2010 12:34:05 PM

Referring to the photo above, it could be argued that Bernanke lies not just with words, but deeds also and, to be brutally truthful: Is giving us the wrong finger...

DB: I will understand completely, if you choose to remove the following ...

I wish someone, other than me would put Weeble out of his misery, to avoid the perception of me picking on the "disadvantaged" (insert one of many apt politically incorrect terms).

Reply from the Daily Bell:

We do not understand Weeble for the most part and thus have difficulty doing anything with him.

Posted by Weeble on 7/22/2010 11:44:15 PM

John Cleese, playing a wonderful (no, the best) actor, explaining how good he is at acting. He is being interviewed by Eric Idle about Hamlet.

John Cleese (in an excitable tone):

To BE, ornottobe

OR

to BE, OR, notto, BE

OR

tobeornotto, BE!


Eric Idle (sounding dull):

Inflection

John Cleese (still excited):

And of course inflection!


I am a happy person, who feels free on his leash, which is 99 percent of the battle. If I could only eat through the leash.

I think other people have to eat mine and I have to eat theirs, because it is really close to my neck.

"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and flout him, for he cannot bear scorn". LUTHER

"The devil...the prowde spirit... cannot endure to be mocked". THOMAS MORE

Those 2 quotes are at the front of The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis, the book I am re-reading (probably the 7th time).

Both those quotes, as well as the actual book give me information on why this word turns as it does. It is only 209 pages. A few hours investment. It is a PE decoder. Every time I plow through it, I get more information. I need information!

My heart is actually in the right place...

Posted by Jeannie Queenie on 7/23/2010 2:44:25 AM

Weeble,

Your wife might call you her 'Pookie,'
but your last reply makes you look kooky.

You send me to Bowie's, Jean Genie,
A song written by a singular weenie.

That song in no way made sense
So are you on drugs or just dense?

You say you bend light to create.
Yet, you seem unable to debate.

With your obliqueness I surely do fear,
That your insights are obscured via beer.

With your light bending abilities i see,
that you sure are so different than me.

So when Screwtape proposes a toast,
what about that thrills you the most?

His take on ersatz american education?
Or his take on the state of our nation?

I've never been a Jean Genie in the bottle.
I get high on life, as my art is my throttle.

I don't need a bottle, I don't need a brew.
All I need is a brush, any canvas will do.

You accuse me of being prime 1, 2 and 3.
Then tell me I'm headed for 5, oh me!

When you mock do you feel like a hero?
Tell you this..I'd rather be five than zero.

Posted by Weeble on 7/23/2010 7:42:28 AM

Just woke up, to you, of all people!

There was a young lady named Jeannie,
Who's bulitts flew fast like McQueenie,
She doesn't know what,
The Hell Lewis got,
When he showed normal being so seamy.

1) The Monty Python skit clip referenced BR and HIS problem with lack OF communication SKILLS. If you read carefully, I won by conceding on the point that his rep was on the line and by continuing, he would bury himself, and I do not want that to happen. But I don't regard winning as a goal, or the point of this site. I do not want to win; I want us all to win, just by evening up the score with the PE.

2) Poetic metaphor or alliteration with your handle (sorry if it was taken as a moth metamorphosis or illiteration) took bad about cocaine and all, but Bowie, Poe (along with many others, even non-art producers) suffered with not being able to handle the truth either.

3) No, I'm not on drugs, the song should be taken with a grain of salt. The title was used for alliteration and a synaptual segue. Bowie's arrangements were top notch and unique. Like Marc Bolan, Abba, Nelly Furtado, Led Zeppelin, among many others. The producers and session musicians (and sometimes writers behind the curtain) "guide them" well when they need it.

4) Some people understand my idiocy. I debated you and won on your stimulating virginal appearance on this site, so I would be the master debater (never won against DB though (he the mang). I actually tuned you into me on the AM/FM dial (NASA / Muslim) and turned the volume up full blast for you. Maybe you should read my retort to you. It was Rhapsody in Blue (between the lines). Your silence afterwards and subsequent tack into the "here and now" is testament to the fact you let me have the last word.

Too long
End Part 1 of 2

Posted by Weeble on 7/23/2010 7:44:29 AM

Part 2 of 2

5) No beer either. Kids, working too much, and need to "focus rather than forget" preclude the melting of that Malt Teezer.

6) Yes. There are 6.8 billion that would also agree.

7) See limerick.

8) If the nation is within you, then yes to that.

9) Then take off the governor. See 2.

10) Your word association football is pretty good too.

11) Look up Fibonacci and Phi. Prime numbers are in our DNA, reflected everywhere, and we are driven by the Sun. It was merely a call to number 5, the next prime number. Maybe you accidentally found you needed something to get something out of nothing, and that is as far as it goes? But it was number 3, nevertheless.

12) No, see 1 and 4. I prefer to have no rep. Since I am Weeble, there is no rep available under that name and can be shot at with great ease as I fly away into a cloud and re-appear as, let's say, Oops, or Gerald Bostock, or Esh Alon.

Oh, and my limerick was way better than your 2 Costanza Panzer! Na, na, na,, na, naaaaah!

Posted by Weeble on 7/23/2010 7:58:21 AM

I know they were couplets, but I rushed the ending. I will raise my glass of beer and snort some cocaine, while listening to some Clapton with you on my negating error at the end. I am not an animal; I am a human being, slurp. (elephant man).

Posted by Weeble on 7/23/2010 10:01:56 AM

And that would be the 5th beer, if I'm counting.

Posted by Jeannie Queenie on 7/23/2010 2:39:23 PM

Whacky Winsome Weeble...Wonderboy or whippersnapper? You tell us! Your weaselword wavelengths are wearying we readers. I wager that you view Weeble as Warden of this wonderful website where you weave 'whoppers' and walkover all who don't get whackjobbery.

Now that I got that out of my system, let's get down to business.

I didn't reply to your nasa/muslim multitude of posts, for there was nothing to reply to. Further, one cannot reason with the unreasonable. You said that I didn't get the last word...excuse me, but is there a pissing contest going on here that I know not of? If such is the case, I can't enter the race, for I don't have what you have in that dept, but don't need one either, for with what I have I can get one of 'those' anytime I want...na na na nahh nahh...

I also don't know what 'clip' of which you refer. As for Rhapsody in BLue between the lines..just what does George Gershwin's famous music have to do with anything here...and as far as I know there were no lyrics, just music. And as for your rock band boy names, leave me out on that for we are from diff generations. Have been an avid jazz enthusiast my whole life. Rock doesn't do it for me.

Further anyone that needs brain burning drugs to do music, clearly cannot create with a crystal clear cranium sans the crystals!

Which brings me to ask why at 10:01 this morn, you were already on #5 Colsen. It's TGIF, but most folks wait until 3:00...geez louise.

And speaking of prime, are you past Prime? What is this about here..'6.8 billion that would also agree'----agree to WHAT? Me thinks you wrote the above when the foam of your mug had gone from the corners of your mouth, making you look like 'got milk?" to a space above your mouth which clouded those baby blue or brown eyes.

In closing, I am still lmao over your 'Some people understand my idiocy. I debated you and won on your stimulating virginal appearance on this site, so I would be the master debater (never won against DB though (he the mang)". Methinks you had a freudian slip with your touting you are the master bater. As for the virgin bit, with five kids,I hardly qualify as a vestal virgin, even though I do keep my sacred fires perpetually burning at my altar of Athena.

Posted by Weeble on 7/23/2010 4:33:50 PM

Yah baby, that's the spirit. I think you may have cured me of my sarcastic bent.

Primes are 1, 2, 3, 5... Hence 5th beer. No drugs, no booze, just good wholesome non-plastic food and RO water.

We are both making nothing out of something now, so I bow to your excellent come-backs.

I guess you didn't get my limerick then...

Posted by Jeannie Queenie on 7/23/2010 5:14:13 PM

Weeble, if the limerick was

"There was a young lady named Jeannie,
Who's bulitts flew fast like McQueenie',

then yes, I did read it, but must correct you on the young lady part. A lady I am, and even though some folks put me at 20 yrs younger than my chronolocal age,as does my doc, truth be known,I'm no longer a spring chicken.

Not exactly a dried up hen either or a waddling turkey. Let's just say, it's all good at this point And like Helen Reddy said in her hit song,

"You can bend but never break me
'cause it only serves to make me
More determined to achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a novice any longer
'cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul"

So lover boy, put a shrimp on the barbee for me,
and a cold Colsen to swallow it down. Friends again?
Hope so, for although sometimes your writing is hard
to decipher, at times I actually get the drift, that
is, when I'm not too tired or overwhelmed with all that
is on my plate. Yes, we do have lives beyond DB, but
having said that, I always return to this feast that
provides us with the best of intellectual appeteazers,
entrees and sweet desserts hardly found elsewhere.
We can thank DB for serving up the best on the web!

Reply from the Daily Bell:

Thanks for the kind words.

Posted by Weeble on 7/23/2010 6:36:48 PM

Wait a mo, what was this?

"I wager that you view Weeble as Warden of this wonderful website where you weave 'whoppers' and walkover all who don't get whackjobbery".

Warden? No way. I walk the tightrope of amusing banter only. I have no illusions of grandeur. If I was noticed too much, like some sort of Oracle database, then I would SQL my tires in every gear (except 4th) and cruise back into the cloud (in 5th). No rep for this dude. The only warden is DB.

Wonderful? Yes it is.

Whoppers? A whoppers prompt reactions, which I don't recall ever experiencing here (never blogged consistently anywhere else).

"Walking over whack jobs", if that is what you were meaning, is rarely done by me, and reserved mainly for unhealthy talk (in my humble opinion). If I get whacked, as a result, it is virtually painless and necessary, as proven with you.

Posted by Weeble on 7/23/2010 6:49:06 PM

I hope you don't dress like Helen Reddy...

See, not everything is instrumental. Take Mike Oldfield for example. The best line in Tubular Bells is sluggug wak tog wagunuwow. I say it to my dog and he goes crazy play time. If you have never heard of that album, then I guess I should maybe ask Mr Postman for a delivery of some wood so I can knock together some carpenter's analogies for you.

Never any hard feelings.

I cannot tell you how old I am for net reasons, other than to say we are both only as old as we think we are; and you sound younger than me.

Posted by AmanfromMars on 7/24/2010 2:32:53 AM

"Nothing happens / is created "just by thinking"." ..... Posted by Bill Ross on 7/22/2010 7:00:25 AM

Bill Ross,

Do you want to reconsider and correct that false statement? For there are more than just one posting here, who would know that everything and anything can happen and is created just by sharing thinking and developing ideas. Artists in the true sense of the word, in whatever Field of Play they would Be a Prime Actor and Catalyst, know this unknown known particularly well.

That XXXXStreamly Subtle Semantic Embellishment which spreads thinking further afield and into the Consciousness of Others, does make the Fundamental Significant Difference that Changes a Dodgy Doubt into Secure and Sincere Belief.