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Wishful Thinking: Why The Economist Wants Social Media to Replace Blogs

Saturday, July 09, 2011 – by Anthony Wile

Anthony Wile

The Economist Magazine is out with an article entitled "The end of mass media: Coming full circle." It actually provides us with a kind of sub-dominant social theme – that "social media" take us back to the pamphleteering days of Samuel Johnson, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine and others.

This has been, in a sense, a message of ours for many years. And here at DB, we've regularly compared the output of the Gutenberg Press and its revolutionary influence to the Internet. The Economist is about 10 years late in joining the party.

Even so, I think The Economist is making the wrong comparison and doing it on purpose. Blogs and websites are a far more appropriate comparison to the Gutenberg Press than "social media."

There is likely a reason that The Economist, a power elite mouthpiece, wants to talk up social media. Here's the beginning of an article from Global Research written way back in March 2009, when Facebook only had 20 million users but was well on its way to success:

Facebook - the CIA conspiracy ... Facebook has 20 million users worldwide, is worth billions of dollars and, if internet sources are to be believed, was started by the CIA. The social networking phenomenon started as a way of American college students to keep in touch. It is rapidly catching up with MySpace, and has left others like Bebo in its wake.

But there is a dark side to the success story that's been spreading across the blogosphere. A complex but riveting Big Brother-type conspiracy theory, which links Facebook to the CIA and the US Department of Defence. The CIA is, though, using a Facebook group to recruit staff for its very sexy sounding National Clandestine Service.

The story starts once Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg had launched, after the dorm room drama that's led to the current court case. Facebook's first round of venture capital funding ($US500,000) came from former Paypal CEO Peter Thiel. Author of anti-multicultural tome 'The Diversity Myth', he is also on the board of radical conservative group VanguardPAC.

The second round of funding into Facebook ($US12.7 million) came from venture capital firm Accel Partners. Its manager James Breyer was formerly chairman of the National Venture Capital Association, and served on the board with Gilman Louie, CEO of In-Q-Tel, a venture capital firm established by the Central Intelligence Agency in 1999. One of the company's key areas of expertise is in "data mining technologies."

The Internet has revealed much about the way the world really works. And more and more it seems evident and obvious that almost NO company in US, Britain and Europe becomes globally dominant without Intel vetting – and subsequent cooperation with high-ranking government officials.

These people are proxies, in fact, for Anglosphere elites themselves. And the Anglosphere elites in my view own almost everything worth owning. (When one owns a central bank after all, one can print money at will. Western elites control about 100 of them through the BIS.)

This was a big secret in the 20th century. It's increasingly well known in the 21st. The West's "capitalism" is mostly authoritarian, but the powers-that-be have tried to disguise it as much as possible. They are still pretending even though they have been "outed" by the 'Net.

Of course, you can have a successful chain of, say, donut shops without being bothered by snoops. But to have a world spanning company of any sort – from soda pop, to automobiles, to media, to computers and software – you'll no doubt interact with a friendly spook sooner or later.

How does it work? Don't know, exactly ... But probably, the dark-suited gentlemen sitting erectly in your office indicating that as a "patriot" and successful businessperson you ought to be helpful to your country, is politely pressuring you.

Then comes the hook. Perhaps you ought to think about making a movie that takes a favorable look at the military-industrial complex. Maybe you ought to build a back door into your software so the government can use it to catch "criminals." Are you making cars? Perhaps you ought to come up with a special military model.

Likely, you will be offered money as well. And told that significant, shadowy individuals have taken a sizeable position in your firm. Most CEOs will say yes. The ones that say "no" may soon find themselves under attack via the media, politically or corporately.

This is how the EU apparently operates. Important politicians and corporate types are told if they do not cooperate with the Eurocrat vision, they'll be thoroughly embarrassed by one revelation after another. On the other hand, if they are helpful, they'll be provided a numbered Swiss account and a good deal of secret cash. The corruption thus goes right to the top. Everybody is involved in the conspiracy.

In the case of Mark Zuckerberg, founder of Facebook, the process seems fairly transparent. For one thing, Zuckerberg apparently attended a select, elite grade school along with another famous individual known today as Lady Gaga.

No coincidence either. The reason for so much standardized testing these days is that the Anglosphere elites want to capture mathematically adept young men and women at an early age. If they continue to show promise, they are funneled into colleges such as Yale, Harvard and MIT.

Zuckerberg ended up at Harvard. Doubtless the idea for Facebook was his own – or at least partially so. But once he had put together a popular prototype, his "friends" swung into action. If he needed funding, it was provided. If he needed marketing, it was available.

The young man was on a fast track. He wore a hoodie and kept quiet about his government associations. That's his MO. He's done it well, and he's been rewarded not only with outsized wealth but also with a major motion picture. No doubt an autobiography is on the way. Perhaps some sort of Nobel Prize.

Eventually, like Bill Gates, he'll "donate" his enormous wealth to social causes. Actually, he'll be instructed to. It'll go to some Foundation the Anglosphere elites control. They don't leave outsize fortunes in private hands if they can help it. And Zuckerberg is the hired help. He's not a "real" insider and probably never will be.

This is how the elite operates. They both support and control their enablers. One can see it with Julian Assange, another seeming Intel asset. Assange has all the elite signatures: a million dollar book contract and a major movie about his life in the works. He has, in fact, already been mentioned for a Nobel Prize.

But what exactly has Assange done? As a young man, he was arrested for hacking and threatened with a long jail sentence. Apparently, that may have turned him – and the rest is history.

Assange, in fact, has a close relationship with ... you guessed it – The Economist, which has bestowed upon him several writing awards. In my view, it's no coincidence this article brings up his name prominently, as follows:

Julian Assange has said that WikiLeaks operates in the tradition of the radical pamphleteers of the English civil war who tried to "cast all the Mysteries and Secrets of Government" before the public.

Of course, this is nonsense. WikiLeaks is not a pamphleteer. WikiLeaks writes nothing at all; it merely leaks. (Though little lately.) Not only that, but its last big, announced leak came from a gentlemen with a list of prominent Swiss tax evaders, a list that has apparently been leaked several times. So much for exposing government secrets.

This Economist makes other points, equally questionable. Its main working hypothesis is that the Internet is contributing to a breakdown of mass media. Tell that to Matt Drudge who regularly attracts 10 million viewers per day to his website. That's an audience rivaled only by big TV programs.

No, the Internet Reformation is not shattering the mass media of Anglosphere elites. It is REPLACING that media. Big difference. As we've pointed out many times before, the mainstream media can't compete with the Internet – absent extraordinary censorship which does not exist yet – because the alternative 'Net press is not controlled and homogenized. It tends to tell the truth, or several truths, anyway.

The Economist is trying to present a kind of elite promotion. It is talking up social 'Net media – which the establishment can control fairly easily from the top – at the expense of myriad bloggers and websites. These are the writers and poets one could compare fairly to pamphleteers of days past. Not Zuckerberg. Here's some more from The Economist article:

News is becoming a social medium again, as it was until the early 19th century – only more so ... there is a great historical irony at the heart of the current transformation of news. The industry is being reshaped by technology – but by undermining the mass media's business models, that technology is in many ways returning the industry to the more vibrant, freewheeling and discursive ways of the pre-industrial era.

Until the early 19th century there was no technology for disseminating news to large numbers of people in a short space of time. It travelled as people chatted in marketplaces and taverns or exchanged letters with their friends. This phenomenon can be traced back to Roman times, when members of the elite kept each other informed with a torrent of letters, transcriptions of speeches and copies of the acta diurna, the official gazette that was posted in the forum each day.

News travelled along social networks because there was no other conduit. The invention of the printing press meant that many copies of a document could be produced more quickly than before, but distribution still relied on personal connections. In early 1518 Martin Luther's writings spread around Germany in two weeks as they were carried from one town to the next.

As Luther and his supporters argued with his opponents over the following decade, more than 6m religious pamphlets were sold in Germany. "News ballads", which spread news in the form of popular songs, covered the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588, among many other events. In January 1776 Thomas Paine's pamphlet "Common Sense", which rallied the colonists against the British crown, was printed in a run of 1,000 copies. One of them reached George Washington, who was so impressed that he made American officers read extracts of Paine's work to their men.

By July 1776 around 250,000 people, nearly half the free population of the colonies, had been exposed to Paine's ideas. Newspapers at the time had small, local circulations and were a mix of opinionated editorials, contributions from readers and items from other papers; there were no dedicated reporters.

We can see from this narrative how The Economist twists the analysis. We've written about this before. Social media are to be THE transformative enterprise. There's a reason of course. One need merely work with a Google or a Face Book and data mine to one's heart's content. Blogs and websites are not easily controlled. Social media is.

The Economist makes other dubious claims in this article. It claims that "the mass-media era now looks like a relatively brief and anomalous period that is coming to an end." How the anonymous writer(s) come to this conclusion is a mystery. Google, Drudge and numerous other blogs and websites probably reach together and separately MORE viewers than 20th century media. The Internet is big. And so are its biggest facilities.

The article does get some things right: "The biggest shift is that journalism is no longer the exclusive preserve of journalists. Ordinary people are playing a more active role in the news system, along with a host of technology firms, news start-ups and not-for-profit groups." True enough.

But then it swings right back to its main theme: "'Social media are certainly not a fad, and their impact is only just beginning to be felt. 'It's everywhere—and it's going to be even more everywhere,' says Arianna Huffington."

Now that's funny! Huffington didn't create a social media site, she created a socialist-oriented news and information WEBSITE. In order to bang the drum for social media, The Economist writers are actually misrepresenting what Huffington created (and subsequently sold to a continually desperate AOL).

Here's how The Economist ends the article: "Successful media organisations will be the ones that accept this new reality. They need to reorient themselves towards serving readers rather than advertisers, embrace social features and collaboration, get off political and moral high horses and stop trying to erect barriers around journalism to protect their position. The digital future of news has much in common with its chaotic, ink-stained past."

We've made all these points before (with the exception of the social media one). In fact, we've kinda helped pioneer the point of view that the Internet is the new Gutenberg press and that it's driving the elite-controlled mainstream media crazy. You can see my latest analysis here: Rupert Murdoch's Failing Attempts to Control the Internet Reformation.

I'm glad the Economist has hopped on board (some 10 years later), but the decision to emphasize social media distorts the tale. It's obvious enough WHY the editors of this controlled magazine want to emphasize social media, but it's already a failed enterprise. Rupert Murdoch tried to turn MySpace into a news and information disseminator and he couldn't do it. Facebook likely won't manage the trick either, though it's much larger.

The action may well remain with blogs and websites – seemingly the REAL stubbornly uncontrollable pamphleteers of the modern, electronic era. Samuel Johnson, Thomas Paine, Voltaire, Alexander Pope, John Dryden, etc. – none of these individuals would necessarily have been interested in "friending" people – much less putting intimate, personal information online for the world to see.

François-Marie Arouet (Voltaire), Jonathan Swift (Isaac Bickerstaff), 17th earl of Oxford, Edward de Vere (Shakespeare, probably) – these men used pen names for a reason. Telling the truth is often a dangerous act. But it is also an attractive one and is a reason why Drudge with a staff of two or three can generate a larger readership than major mainstream media with thousands of writers and editors.

The Economist with articles like this one – filled with half-truths at best – provides us a kind of metaphor for the struggles of the mainstream press. Probably, The Economist is struggling, too. Articles like this are one reason why.




Anthony Wile:   View Bio  l  View Site Contributions
Internet Reformation :   View Glossary Description  l  View Site Contributions

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  Posted by David_Robertson on 07/13/11 03:06 PM

Posted by Summer on 07/12/11 07:28 PM
". Wasn't Jesus the second coming of Elijah? Isn't the prophecy of Jesus' second coming relating to a physical reformer, for when man moves away from God to bring him back?"

Oops - correction:

As John the Baptist was identified by Jesus as the second coming of Elijah, so wouldn't Jesus, in his second coming, also appear as a reformer (physical personage)?

"As John the Baptist was identified by Jesus as the second coming of Elijah, so wouldn't Jesus, in his second coming, also appear as a reformer (physical personage)?"

I have just been reading some teaching from one of the men whose writings we read every day and I thought it was quite relevant to the question you are asking. The ideas that most people have about the coming of the Lord Jesus are for the most part quite wrong and have no connection at all with the revealed plan of God for mankind. Just as it was when Jesus came and no-one recognised Him because they had been expecting an entirely different Messiah so it is today with the Muslims,, the Jews, and the Christians in all the churches. Here is a glimpse from the writings of J.Preston Eby of the truth of the Kingdom of God that is hidden from so many. Please read it carefully:

"Almost two millenniums ago God manifested His first Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. The seed of God's Kingdom on earth was planted in that one man - who is the Head of all the sons of God prepared of God throughout the [past] age. He is the leader and initiator of the Kingdom. Jesus was unknown among all the rulers and the kingdoms of earth. He gathered around Himself a handful of men from the province of Galilee in the tiny land of [Palestine].

Into them He impregnated the revelation and Life of the Kingdom. They in turn, with the resurrected and ascended Jesus directing, marched through the nations proclaiming the Kingdom of God with power and announcing that finally this Kingdom would rule from pole to pole and from sea to sea. Through the [past] age men and women have defected from the kingdom of darkness, from the kingdoms of this world, to join themselves to the free 'New World' of the Spirit, becoming citizens of God's Kingdom. For two thousand years Christ's army has been forming, being meticulously trained and adequately equipped by the power of the Holy Ghost.

These sons of God have fought many battles, although these battles for the most part have been confined to the small and undistinguished territory of their own earth - soul and body. Long has been the preparation and persistent the struggle. And even now, at the end of the age, it still seems that the whole world lies in the lap of the evil one! But soon - yes, very soon - there shall be a glorious and decisive victory! Our lovely Lord Jesus Christ, together with all the glorified sons of God who through the furnace of affliction and the heat of battle have qualified to reign with Him, shall come forth into full manifestation.

The clay feet of the image of great Babylon shall be smitten by this heaven-sent army as by a stone cut out of the mountain without hands, and by them will be crushed the whole system of Babylon with its millenniums of confusion, deceit and darkness Oh, my soul! What a word! But even as the sons of God make their appearance, marching forth conquering and to conquer, not by the sword of man, but by the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God, all will not yet be as it should be, and for this reason they must reign on and on and on...until 'ALL ENEMIES are put under His feet.'

We have all eternity to dwell with God and to work with people. The challenges and tasks shall extend into all ages of time, calling for redemptive ministry to flow through us to the whole creation, just as the Lord Jesus' ministry flows forth unto us today. Through us God shall wipe away all the tears of earth's teeming billions - of all who have ever lived and died upon this planet, and of all who shall yet live. All shall be raised up and redeemed, all shall be saved, delivered, and transformed, and all shall live in righteousness, peace and joy in the presence of God.

There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain. In those blessed ages sin and death and hell shall be destroyed in every creature and in every world, throughout all God's vast universe, and God shall be all in all. Praise His matchless name! Such is the increase of the Kingdom of God! If there is no more pain there can be no more hell, for the torment of hell is pain. If there is no crying there can be no death, for death floods our faces with tears. If there is no more sorrow there can be no sin, for sin begets heartbreak and sorrow. Oh glorious victory! Only the increase of God's Kingdom can bring creation to that Day!"

  Posted by Summer on 07/12/11 07:28 PM

Posted by Summer on 07/12/11 06:24 PM
Hi David, yes I've read both your posts and I found them interesting, especially viz. Ephraim.

I respect your views but I would differ with you.

'If either Islam or Judaism, the only two close relatives of the Christian faith were to become the only faith in God followed by everyone on Earth then mankind would still be in all respects that matter no different than we are today.'

How so? The world, generally, has rejected religion. No way would it be the same as now when holding tightly to moral norms.

'We would either establish the Mosaic law or sharia law as the law of the world and there would still be crime and punishment,'

As long as man exists there will be the inner struggle to try to 'do good' - it's human nature that man can err, although he is born innocent and can use free will to acquire a state of spiritual peace and balance.

A few thoughts:

1. If Jesus accepted the prophets before him, is it not correct to accept those after him?

"The promises made for Isaac, Israel and Ephraim are ..."

2. Yes, however there were conditions which the peoples of Isaac, Israel did not live up to (they incurred wrath according to the Quran), rejecting prophets etc. Thus promises transferred to the line of Ishmael. The people of Ephraim (Israelite physical lineage) are of the spiritual line of Ishmael now - this is interesting as they accepted Moses, Jesus and The Holy Prophet (Ishmael's line).

3. IMHO, rationality, revelation, knowledge and truth must be parts of faith. It does not make any sense to me that God would 'need' or want a son or manifest Himself as such. When God 'showed' Himself to the mountain Moses saw it crumble, therefore how would a physical manifestation - as a man, possibly happen?

4. If He created the universe why would He choose a human being to be His son? What does that make Mary?

5. Wasn't Jesus the second coming of Elijah? Isn't the prophecy of Jesus' second coming relating to a physical reformer, for when man moves away from God to bring him back?

You are entitled to your beliefs, however I would respectfully disagree.

One thing is for sure - and unites us all - Morality is needed by ALL and monotheistic faiths offer, essentially, the same morality.

". Wasn't Jesus the second coming of Elijah? Isn't the prophecy of Jesus' second coming relating to a physical reformer, for when man moves away from God to bring him back?"

Oops - correction:

As John the Baptist was identified by Jesus as the second coming of Elijah, so wouldn't Jesus, in his second coming, also appear as a reformer (physical personage)?

  Posted by Summer on 07/12/11 06:24 PM

Posted by David_Robertson on 07/12/11 03:56 PM
Hi Summer,

I hope you read my response to Memehunter since it deals at some length with my reasons for believing that the tribes of the Northern Kingdom did indeed become the nations of Europe and the colonies of those nations including the United States. This belief is founded securely on the covenantal promises of God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel and their descendants through the line of Ephraim. The promise made to Judah the patriarch of the Jews was different. He was given the sceptre or rule of the Kingdom. "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; the nations will obey him." (Genesis 49:10)

This is why Jesus was born in the line of Judah and King David, to fulfil the promise of the Messiah coming from the house of David, and to receive the sceptre or Kingship of the Kingdom when He overcame sin and death for all mankind. This is also why the House of Judah was kept by God until the Messiah came and then after His death and resurrection they were given a grace period of forty years during which time most of them rejected the Gospel and as a result God sent the Roman armies against them and destroyed the Temple and city in 70 AD, forty years after the death of John the Baptist with the final redoubt at Masada being destroyed in 73 AD, forty years after the death of Jesus. Forty in biblical gematria is the number of trial or probation. Click to view link

As I have said I have based my belief in the multitudes of the lost tribes on the covenantal promises to Abraham through the line of Isaac, Jacob/Israel and Joseph/Ephraim. God also made promises to Hagar the mother of Ishmael and to Abraham, for Ishmael.

"Then the Lord's angel said to her (Hagar), 'Return to your mistress and submit to her authority. I will greatly multiply your descendants,' the Lord's angel added, 'so that they will be too numerous to count. Then the Lord's angel said to her, 'You are now pregnant and are about to give birth to a son. You are to name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard your painful groans." (Genesis 16:9-11) [Ishmael means God hears]

"Abraham said to God, 'O that Ishmael might live before you!' God said, 'No, Sarah your wife is going to bear you a son, and you will name him Isaac. I will confirm my covenant with him as a perpetual covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you. I will indeed bless him, make him fruitful, and give him a multitude of descendants. He will become the father of twelve princes; I will make him into a great nation. But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this set time next year.' (Genesis 17:18-21)

So, if we can SEE that the promise made to Abraham for Ishmael is fulfilled in the 100 million+ Arab people that are descended from him, and indeed in a spiritual sense in all the nations of Islam, why is it so difficult to believe that the promise made to Abraham for Isaac and Jacob/Israel through Ephraim is fulfilled in the nations of Europe and their colonies and spiritually, at this present time, in all the Christian nations? The promises made for Isaac, Israel and Ephraim are so much greater than the promise made to Ishmael. They are too great to be fulfilled in the small number of Jews in the world, even if that were possible since as we have seen the Jews come from Judah who received a different promise, or even in the small region of Kashmir including Afghanistan and the Pashtuns. The promises are not merely numerical but point also to the descendants of Israel possessing the gates of their enemies which are the means of controlling other nations. It is not difficult to see this being fulfilled in the United States of America today. There is an interesting look at America in prophecy that links the Northern Kingdom of Israel with America throughout her history. Click to view link

On the question of Jesus' resurrection from the dead I did read some of the links you provided and the arguments in favour of His going to Kashmir. Needless to say I do not find them persuasive but allow me to say in a very few words why the teachings of Islam or Judaism or indeed any other religion hold no attraction for me.

In my life, I am now seventy years old, I spent many years seeking the truth, the meaning and purpose of life both of mankind but also of myself. I was a died in the wool sceptic and simply refused to believe anything that did not make sense, yet I continued to search assiduously and suffered through many painful personal experiences because I would not settle for what I saw in others as a blind acceptance of the nostrums and panaceas of society in order to escape the fear of death or failure or even the possibility that there was NO meaning to life at all.

Then, when I was 36 years old, after a particularly difficult period in my life, I had a personal encounter with God Who revealed to me the reality of the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God. ( I hasten to add that I had no Christian friends, I did not go to church and whenever I met Christians I would enjoy debating their faith with them but never found anything they said to be meaningful. Of course I examined the claims of all the world religions but until that year leading up to my surrender to Christ my inclination was only marginally in favour of Christianity. ) Such an intense revelation as I had is not easily set aside and indeed to do so would qualify as insanity.

Now, let me say why only the Christian faith holds any hope for humanity. If either Islam or Judaism, the only two close relatives of the Christian faith were to become the only faith in God followed by everyone on Earth then mankind would still be in all respects that matter no different than we are today. We would either establish the Mosaic law or sharia law as the law of the world and there would still be crime and punishment, sin would still rule the human heart and death would still stalk the land. Most importantly, Man would still be Man and God would still be God.

The faith of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Kingdom of God reveals that God became a Man so that Man could become God. That in a nutshell is the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God. That is the only possible future of mankind because that is the future God has planned for us. Without the death, resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ and His coming again in His Spirit to give the Life of God to those who will receive Him, there would be NO hope for mankind. Those who know Him know that He IS the Way, the Truth and the Life just as He said and in due time this Truth will be manifest to the world in His many sons, in His many membered Body, the Body which was broken for us and in which all mankind shall partake eventually to receive immortality, incorruptibility and glory. THAT is the HOPE of mankind in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Hi David, yes I've read both your posts and I found them interesting, especially viz. Ephraim.

I respect your views but I would differ with you.

'If either Islam or Judaism, the only two close relatives of the Christian faith were to become the only faith in God followed by everyone on Earth then mankind would still be in all respects that matter no different than we are today.'

How so? The world, generally, has rejected religion. No way would it be the same as now when holding tightly to moral norms.

'We would either establish the Mosaic law or sharia law as the law of the world and there would still be crime and punishment,'

As long as man exists there will be the inner struggle to try to 'do good' - it's human nature that man can err, although he is born innocent and can use free will to acquire a state of spiritual peace and balance.

A few thoughts:

1. If Jesus accepted the prophets before him, is it not correct to accept those after him?

"The promises made for Isaac, Israel and Ephraim are ..."

2. Yes, however there were conditions which the peoples of Isaac, Israel did not live up to (they incurred wrath according to the Quran), rejecting prophets etc. Thus promises transferred to the line of Ishmael. The people of Ephraim (Israelite physical lineage) are of the spiritual line of Ishmael now - this is interesting as they accepted Moses, Jesus and The Holy Prophet (Ishmael's line).

3. IMHO, rationality, revelation, knowledge and truth must be parts of faith. It does not make any sense to me that God would 'need' or want a son or manifest Himself as such. When God 'showed' Himself to the mountain Moses saw it crumble, therefore how would a physical manifestation - as a man, possibly happen?

4. If He created the universe why would He choose a human being to be His son? What does that make Mary?

5. Wasn't Jesus the second coming of Elijah? Isn't the prophecy of Jesus' second coming relating to a physical reformer, for when man moves away from God to bring him back?

You are entitled to your beliefs, however I would respectfully disagree.

One thing is for sure - and unites us all - Morality is needed by ALL and monotheistic faiths offer, essentially, the same morality.

  Posted by memehunter on 07/12/11 05:13 PM

Posted by David_Robertson on 07/12/11 03:56 PM
Hi Summer,

I hope you read my response to Memehunter since it deals at some length with my reasons for believing that the tribes of the Northern Kingdom did indeed become the nations of Europe and the colonies of those nations including the United States. This belief is founded securely on the covenantal promises of God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel and their descendants through the line of Ephraim. The promise made to Judah the patriarch of the Jews was different. He was given the sceptre or rule of the Kingdom. "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; the nations will obey him." (Genesis 49:10)

This is why Jesus was born in the line of Judah and King David, to fulfil the promise of the Messiah coming from the house of David, and to receive the sceptre or Kingship of the Kingdom when He overcame sin and death for all mankind. This is also why the House of Judah was kept by God until the Messiah came and then after His death and resurrection they were given a grace period of forty years during which time most of them rejected the Gospel and as a result God sent the Roman armies against them and destroyed the Temple and city in 70 AD, forty years after the death of John the Baptist with the final redoubt at Masada being destroyed in 73 AD, forty years after the death of Jesus. Forty in biblical gematria is the number of trial or probation. Click to view link

As I have said I have based my belief in the multitudes of the lost tribes on the covenantal promises to Abraham through the line of Isaac, Jacob/Israel and Joseph/Ephraim. God also made promises to Hagar the mother of Ishmael and to Abraham, for Ishmael.

"Then the Lord's angel said to her (Hagar), 'Return to your mistress and submit to her authority. I will greatly multiply your descendants,' the Lord's angel added, 'so that they will be too numerous to count. Then the Lord's angel said to her, 'You are now pregnant and are about to give birth to a son. You are to name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard your painful groans." (Genesis 16:9-11) [Ishmael means God hears]

"Abraham said to God, 'O that Ishmael might live before you!' God said, 'No, Sarah your wife is going to bear you a son, and you will name him Isaac. I will confirm my covenant with him as a perpetual covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you. I will indeed bless him, make him fruitful, and give him a multitude of descendants. He will become the father of twelve princes; I will make him into a great nation. But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this set time next year.' (Genesis 17:18-21)

So, if we can SEE that the promise made to Abraham for Ishmael is fulfilled in the 100 million+ Arab people that are descended from him, and indeed in a spiritual sense in all the nations of Islam, why is it so difficult to believe that the promise made to Abraham for Isaac and Jacob/Israel through Ephraim is fulfilled in the nations of Europe and their colonies and spiritually, at this present time, in all the Christian nations? The promises made for Isaac, Israel and Ephraim are so much greater than the promise made to Ishmael. They are too great to be fulfilled in the small number of Jews in the world, even if that were possible since as we have seen the Jews come from Judah who received a different promise, or even in the small region of Kashmir including Afghanistan and the Pashtuns. The promises are not merely numerical but point also to the descendants of Israel possessing the gates of their enemies which are the means of controlling other nations. It is not difficult to see this being fulfilled in the United States of America today. There is an interesting look at America in prophecy that links the Northern Kingdom of Israel with America throughout her history. Click to view link

On the question of Jesus' resurrection from the dead I did read some of the links you provided and the arguments in favour of His going to Kashmir. Needless to say I do not find them persuasive but allow me to say in a very few words why the teachings of Islam or Judaism or indeed any other religion hold no attraction for me.

In my life, I am now seventy years old, I spent many years seeking the truth, the meaning and purpose of life both of mankind but also of myself. I was a died in the wool sceptic and simply refused to believe anything that did not make sense, yet I continued to search assiduously and suffered through many painful personal experiences because I would not settle for what I saw in others as a blind acceptance of the nostrums and panaceas of society in order to escape the fear of death or failure or even the possibility that there was NO meaning to life at all.

Then, when I was 36 years old, after a particularly difficult period in my life, I had a personal encounter with God Who revealed to me the reality of the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God. ( I hasten to add that I had no Christian friends, I did not go to church and whenever I met Christians I would enjoy debating their faith with them but never found anything they said to be meaningful. Of course I examined the claims of all the world religions but until that year leading up to my surrender to Christ my inclination was only marginally in favour of Christianity. ) Such an intense revelation as I had is not easily set aside and indeed to do so would qualify as insanity.

Now, let me say why only the Christian faith holds any hope for humanity. If either Islam or Judaism, the only two close relatives of the Christian faith were to become the only faith in God followed by everyone on Earth then mankind would still be in all respects that matter no different than we are today. We would either establish the Mosaic law or sharia law as the law of the world and there would still be crime and punishment, sin would still rule the human heart and death would still stalk the land. Most importantly, Man would still be Man and God would still be God.

The faith of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Kingdom of God reveals that God became a Man so that Man could become God. That in a nutshell is the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God. That is the only possible future of mankind because that is the future God has planned for us. Without the death, resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ and His coming again in His Spirit to give the Life of God to those who will receive Him, there would be NO hope for mankind. Those who know Him know that He IS the Way, the Truth and the Life just as He said and in due time this Truth will be manifest to the world in His many sons, in His many membered Body, the Body which was broken for us and in which all mankind shall partake eventually to receive immortality, incorruptibility and glory. THAT is the HOPE of mankind in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

David,

Thank you for your detailed explanations. Although I do not share the conclusions you derived from the study of the Bible, I share your interest in spiritual questions and interrogations about the meaning of life. I would also add that the message of the New Testament is very important, regardless of who was Jesus, where and when he lived (all questions for which I tend to reject the "mainstream" version), or even whether he really existed as a person - we do not absolutely need the historical figure of Jesus to appreciate the wisdom of the Gospel, a point that is often forgotten or neglected by non-believers and believers alike.

  Posted by memehunter on 07/12/11 04:59 PM

@DB and peri1224:

The "scholars" name is not Jack Flaws, though, yes, he is certainly "flakey."

I may be partly responsible for the confusion. I linked to a website that summarized Springmeier's conclusions about the top ruling families. This is the website to which DB linked. I then also quoted a passage from Springmeier's "Bloodlines of the Illuminati" but without giving a link because I could not identify the original source at first (this passage can easily be found online in many places). I then confirmed that Springmeier was the author.

I would also prefer to have other sources besides Springmeier (as mentioned in the first part of my post about the top ruling families), but I have no reason not to believe him regarding the Rothschilds. In fact, there are other sources, and facts, starting with the Rothschilds' logo (mentioned in the passage I quoted: "This belief is strengthened by the Rothschild's use of the occultic Seal of Solomon as a family symbol."), that could be used to support Springmeier's interpretation, at least in this specific case.

  Posted by David_Robertson on 07/12/11 03:56 PM

Posted by Summer on 07/12/11 07:20 AM
Hello David, I hope you are well.

Well, good to have you on board! I don't think you accepted the theory the first time I mentioned it!:)

'Most importantly for our discussion these tribes were NOT Jews. The Jews were the tribes of the Southern Kingdom of JUDAH. These were Judah, Benjamin and Levi, the tribe from whom came the priests who served in theTemple. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and descended from King David through Solomon and Nathan. The tribe of Judah was given the "sceptre" or right to rule Israel until the ruler came to whom it belonged. "The sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; the nations will obey him." This is taken to be a Messianic prophecy referring to Jesus.'

Your definition of the 'Jews' being only those of the Israelite line of 'the kingdom of Judah' is quite technical. I refer to Jewish decent in the classical and normal usage - being of broad Israelite lineage, this is how most, even historians would use the word.

'The tribes of the Northern Kingdom were taken into captivity by the Assyrian Empire'

Agreed.

'They later multiplied greatly and became the progenitors of the Scythians, the Cimmerians, the Celts, the Saxons, the Parthians of the Parthian Empire and the many tribes of Goths who all settled the lands of Europe.'

Disagree, this is far too vast a dispersal to be plausible - in any substantial form - given the time period we are discussing, not to mention travelling and its difficulties etc. Especially when some historians claim they have located 9 tribes in the Pashtun peoples (tribes stay together they are one people in small groupings, they do not like to disperse).

Dr. Bernier, on the authority of a number of learned people, states in his Travels that the Kashmiris in reality are Jews who in the time of the dispersal in the days of the King of Assur had migrated to this country.

'If this saying of Jesus about His mission to the lost sheep of the house of Israel is taken to mean the nations descended from these ten tribes then this is fulfilled by the spread of the Gospel in the first few centuries predominantly to all the nations of Europe after the birth of the Church on Pentecost 33 AD with the anointing of the 120 disciples by the Holy Spirit.'

I would disagree with this. The biblical mission was, in my view, to be carried out personally by Jesus. Jesus was a prophet (IMHO). A prophet cannot be 'killed' at the hands of his enemy - never. He never said worship me. Father was a metaphorical term and not exclusively used by Jesus, IMHO.

Saint Paul (described as a zealous Jew before he became a Christian, see Wikipedia) has a lot to answer for - biblical interpolations and the concept of trinity. Both of which deviate away from the pristine original teachings of Jesus.

'Certainly the apostle Thomas is traditionally recorded as having carried the Gospel to India and this would confirm what you and I believe about the presence there of some of the descendants of these scattered tribes of the Northern Kingdom.'

What of the Tomb of Jesus in Kashmir etc, is it more realistic that he ascended to heaven or migrated eastwards? The trouble is interpretation. When is scripture metaphorical and when is it literal? Bodily revival and then spiritual ascension, verses bodily heavenly ascension.

Please see this free-to-read book that deals with the lost tribes (albeit from an Islamic perspective).
Click to view link

Memehunter: 2) we should believe that somehow, half of the population of the planet (most of Europe if I understand your post) originates from the tribes from a tiny small region of the Middle East?

I would agree with you here.

Memehunter: 1) we should treat the Bible as a historical document - something it most definitely isn't...

I disagree. Even though the Bible was written probably hundreds of years after Jesus, it has a lot of historical weight. Few historical accounts exist of this age and it is extremely valuable as such.

Given what is known about the distortion of historical facts, I think the Bible has great importance and weight, especially the chapter of Revelations which is probably the least tampered with chapter. Of course those who 'believe' have other reasons to value it and rightly so in their view.

Hi Summer,

I hope you read my response to Memehunter since it deals at some length with my reasons for believing that the tribes of the Northern Kingdom did indeed become the nations of Europe and the colonies of those nations including the United States. This belief is founded securely on the covenantal promises of God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel and their descendants through the line of Ephraim. The promise made to Judah the patriarch of the Jews was different. He was given the sceptre or rule of the Kingdom. "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; the nations will obey him." (Genesis 49:10)

This is why Jesus was born in the line of Judah and King David, to fulfil the promise of the Messiah coming from the house of David, and to receive the sceptre or Kingship of the Kingdom when He overcame sin and death for all mankind. This is also why the House of Judah was kept by God until the Messiah came and then after His death and resurrection they were given a grace period of forty years during which time most of them rejected the Gospel and as a result God sent the Roman armies against them and destroyed the Temple and city in 70 AD, forty years after the death of John the Baptist with the final redoubt at Masada being destroyed in 73 AD, forty years after the death of Jesus. Forty in biblical gematria is the number of trial or probation. Click to view link

As I have said I have based my belief in the multitudes of the lost tribes on the covenantal promises to Abraham through the line of Isaac, Jacob/Israel and Joseph/Ephraim. God also made promises to Hagar the mother of Ishmael and to Abraham, for Ishmael.

"Then the Lord's angel said to her (Hagar), 'Return to your mistress and submit to her authority. I will greatly multiply your descendants,' the Lord's angel added, 'so that they will be too numerous to count. Then the Lord's angel said to her, 'You are now pregnant and are about to give birth to a son. You are to name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard your painful groans." (Genesis 16:9-11) [Ishmael means God hears]

"Abraham said to God, 'O that Ishmael might live before you!' God said, 'No, Sarah your wife is going to bear you a son, and you will name him Isaac. I will confirm my covenant with him as a perpetual covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you. I will indeed bless him, make him fruitful, and give him a multitude of descendants. He will become the father of twelve princes; I will make him into a great nation. But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this set time next year.' (Genesis 17:18-21)

So, if we can SEE that the promise made to Abraham for Ishmael is fulfilled in the 100 million+ Arab people that are descended from him, and indeed in a spiritual sense in all the nations of Islam, why is it so difficult to believe that the promise made to Abraham for Isaac and Jacob/Israel through Ephraim is fulfilled in the nations of Europe and their colonies and spiritually, at this present time, in all the Christian nations? The promises made for Isaac, Israel and Ephraim are so much greater than the promise made to Ishmael. They are too great to be fulfilled in the small number of Jews in the world, even if that were possible since as we have seen the Jews come from Judah who received a different promise, or even in the small region of Kashmir including Afghanistan and the Pashtuns. The promises are not merely numerical but point also to the descendants of Israel possessing the gates of their enemies which are the means of controlling other nations. It is not difficult to see this being fulfilled in the United States of America today. There is an interesting look at America in prophecy that links the Northern Kingdom of Israel with America throughout her history. Click to view link

On the question of Jesus' resurrection from the dead I did read some of the links you provided and the arguments in favour of His going to Kashmir. Needless to say I do not find them persuasive but allow me to say in a very few words why the teachings of Islam or Judaism or indeed any other religion hold no attraction for me.

In my life, I am now seventy years old, I spent many years seeking the truth, the meaning and purpose of life both of mankind but also of myself. I was a died in the wool sceptic and simply refused to believe anything that did not make sense, yet I continued to search assiduously and suffered through many painful personal experiences because I would not settle for what I saw in others as a blind acceptance of the nostrums and panaceas of society in order to escape the fear of death or failure or even the possibility that there was NO meaning to life at all.

Then, when I was 36 years old, after a particularly difficult period in my life, I had a personal encounter with God Who revealed to me the reality of the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God. ( I hasten to add that I had no Christian friends, I did not go to church and whenever I met Christians I would enjoy debating their faith with them but never found anything they said to be meaningful. Of course I examined the claims of all the world religions but until that year leading up to my surrender to Christ my inclination was only marginally in favour of Christianity. ) Such an intense revelation as I had is not easily set aside and indeed to do so would qualify as insanity.

Now, let me say why only the Christian faith holds any hope for humanity. If either Islam or Judaism, the only two close relatives of the Christian faith were to become the only faith in God followed by everyone on Earth then mankind would still be in all respects that matter no different than we are today. We would either establish the Mosaic law or sharia law as the law of the world and there would still be crime and punishment, sin would still rule the human heart and death would still stalk the land. Most importantly, Man would still be Man and God would still be God.

The faith of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Kingdom of God reveals that God became a Man so that Man could become God. That in a nutshell is the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God. That is the only possible future of mankind because that is the future God has planned for us. Without the death, resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ and His coming again in His Spirit to give the Life of God to those who will receive Him, there would be NO hope for mankind. Those who know Him know that He IS the Way, the Truth and the Life just as He said and in due time this Truth will be manifest to the world in His many sons, in His many membered Body, the Body which was broken for us and in which all mankind shall partake eventually to receive immortality, incorruptibility and glory. THAT is the HOPE of mankind in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

  Posted by peri1224 on 07/12/11 11:17 AM

DB: Here, do some real reading ... Scholar...

Your scholar, Jack Flaws, is an amiable sounding and looking (like Santa Claus) man. But he is a creationist, and a fanatical one. He is "debunking" Darwin and evolution with bible prophecy and Catastrophism. He does it in a very rambling, wide ranging and unscientific way, mostly by citing writings of others that apparently impressed him but he barely seems to understand. Listen to him and judge yourself.

Catastrophism deals with all kinds of catastrophes that have befallen earth in the past, including pole shifts, etc.

Anybody can listen to him here:

Click to view link

I wouldn't exactly call him a scholar. Anybody who talks and argues like him will never be taken seriously by scientific minded people. Anything he says about other topics, including Illuminati (he seems to be very impressed by Springmeier, but no own research), is to be taken with more than one grain of salt.

That is the extent of your research and conviction? I'm disappointed in YOU.

Reply from The Daily Bell

The "scholars" name is not Jack Flaws, though, yes, he is certainly "flakey."

However, we were attracted specifically to his conclusions below, which reinforce some of our own. Sure his credibility is easy to attack (so is Makow's for that matter or almost anyone who focuses on directed history).

But these conclusions reinforce some 30 years of our own reading ...

"The Rothschild relationship to the Jews is deceiving. The family stance is publicized as "pro-Jewish", and they have given abundant charity to Jewish causes. But their support of the Jewish race has, in most cases, been used for the sole purpose of controlling the direction and profiting from the Jews. The Rothschilds have been described as the royal family of the Jews. Many leading Rothschilds have been dubbed "King of the Jews". But what kind of Judaism do the Rothschilds support? Do they support the orthodox Jews who believe in the Old Testament and are waiting for the return of the messiah? No. Do they support Messianic Jews who believe Jesus Christ was the messiah who came to save all men? No."

And ...

"I am disappointed by some researchers, who automatically coin the conspiracy a ,,Jewish" one. This unfortunate stumbling block has polluted their work, making it just as misleading as the information put out by the popular media."

  Posted by David_Robertson on 07/12/11 10:08 AM

Posted by memehunter on 07/12/11 02:07 AM
David,

You know that I enjoy reading your posts but honestly I do not understand why

1) we should treat the Bible as a historical document - something it most definitely isn't and

2) we should believe that somehow, half of the population of the planet (most of Europe if I understand your post) originates from the tribes from a tiny small region of the Middle East?

I respect your Christian faith but I do not give much credence to the historical/anthropological theories derived from Biblical exegesis.

Let me answer your questions as best I can. I hope in doing so I shall bring some light to the matter:

1) "Why should we treat the Bible as a historical document - something it most definitely isn't? "

I view the Bible as the inspired word of God and absolute truth, infallible in its original languages. Since it is inspired by the Spirit of God it can only be understood under the guidance of the Spirit of God. Therefore it lies beyond the categories of human wisdom that are created by the human mind apart from God. As it is written "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts and My ways are higher than your ways". (Isaiah 55:8-9)

When one reads the sacred scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit one enters into the mind of God and perceives what is written from the perspective of God and understands the true meaning of the word within the great tapestry of the plans and purposes of God.

This understanding then becomes a foundation and a measuring rod against which all other knowledge must be judged whether historical, scientific, religious or philosophical. The books that I linked to in my previous post that support much of what I wrote contain many references to other books, inscriptions and manuscripts that can be further considered in arriving at a conclusion that one may support with confidence.

The Bible does contain true historical accounts but these are related to the revelation of God's purposes for mankind and the universe that He has created. The way in which these accounts are written is in itself a revelation and all the facts described are actual historical facts even though they are being used in a specific way to weave the tapestry of Gods plans. This means that if one merely reads these accounts as human history then the truth of God's plans and purposes will be hidden from view. One will be able to relate the events accurately but their meaning and their place in the History of God will be invisible to the natural mind.

This is why for instance many scriptures appear shocking even horrific to the casual reader and seem to reveal God as a sadistic monster whereas the truth is that His Name is Holy and His Nature and Character is Love. This paradoxical juxtaposition can only be resolved by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. Too often those who seek to know God are offended by many things they read in scripture and either turn away from Him or begin to twist the scriptures in order to justify their own morality and human wisdom and so end up with a distorted view of God and His plans and purposes. This is why it is written "Now Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness,' and he was called God's friend." (James 2:23, Genesis 15:6)

2) "Why should we believe that somehow, half of the population of the planet (most of Europe if I understand your post) originates from the tribes from a tiny small region of the Middle East? "

"Jesus looked at them and replied, 'This is impossible for mere humans, but for God all things are possible.' (Matthew 19:26) Our relationship with God is predicated on faith. Not just any faith but THE faith, the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ through Whom everything came into being. This faith rests upon His covenants and His promises.

The covenant that God made with Abraham after he obeyed God in the matter of sacrificing Isaac reads:

"The Lord's angel called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, 'I solemnly swear by my own name,' decrees the Lord, 'that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will indeed bless you, and I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be as countless as the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the strongholds (gates) of their enemies. Because you have obeyed me, all the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using the name of your descendants.' (Genesis 22:15-18)

These covenant promises continued in the line of Isaac and Jacob who became Israel. The line of Ishmael also had promises attached to it and from these promises the Arab nations have benefited.

When the patriarch Jacob/Israel was dying he blessed all his sons and spoke promises over each of them. When he was blessing Ephraim and Manasseh the sons of Joseph it is written:

"the Angel who has protected me from all harm - bless these boys. May my name be named in them,
and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac. May they grow into a multitude on the earth. When Joseph saw that his father placed his right hand on Ephraim's head, it displeased him. So he took his father's hand to move it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. Joseph said to his father, 'Not so, my father, for this is the firstborn. Put your right hand on his head.' But his father refused and said, 'I know, my son, I know. He too will become a nation and he too will become great. In spite of this, his younger brother will be even greater and his descendants will become a multitude of nations.' (Genesis 48:16-19) So we see here the covenantal promise to Abraham known as the Birthright being passed to Ephraim.

When it came to the blessing for Joseph it is written:

Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough near a spring whose branches climb over the wall. The archers will attack him, they will shoot at him and oppose him. But his bow will remain steady, and his hands will be skilful; because of the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel, because of the God of your father, who will help you, because of the sovereign God, who will bless you with blessings from the sky above, blessings from the deep that lies below, and blessings of the breasts and womb. The blessings of your father are greater than the blessings of the eternal mountains or the desirable things of the age-old hills. They will be on the head of Joseph and on the brow of the prince of his brothers. (Genesis 49:22-26)

These promises to Joseph are passed down through Ephraim and are yet active and to be completely fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.

The book of the prophet Hosea in particular reveals the amazing promises of God to the people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, also known as Ephraim, the holder of the Birthright name of Israel. This is when God was about to divorce the people and send them out of the land into captivity. In spite of their disobedience and adultery with alien gods He remained faithful to His covenant and promised to remarry them in the lands to where He was sending them. This is fulfilled in the Gospel of Jesus Christ for those who accept His proposal of marriage.

I trust these few thoughts will give you some understanding of the foundation upon which I have built my belief in the way in which God has fulfilled His promises and continues to work out His purposes for the benefit of mankind.

  Posted by Summer on 07/12/11 07:20 AM

Posted by David_Robertson on 07/11/11 03:14 PM
Hi Summer,

I would agree that the tribe of Eran, one of the sons of Ephraim, from whom I believe came the Aryans entered northern India during the period some time after the eighth century BC. Ephraim was one of the sons of Joseph to whom was given the birthright name of Israel. These tribes attached to Ephraim comprised the Northern Kingdom of Israel which consisted of the so called ten "lost tribes".

Most importantly for our discussion these tribes were NOT Jews. The Jews were the tribes of the Southern Kingdom of JUDAH. These were Judah, Benjamin and Levi, the tribe from whom came the priests who served in theTemple. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and descended from King David through Solomon and Nathan. The tribe of Judah was given the "sceptre" or right to rule Israel until the ruler came to whom it belonged. "The sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; the nations will obey him." This is taken to be a Messianic prophecy referring to Jesus.

The tribes of the Northern Kingdom were taken into captivity by the Assyrian Empire in the eighth century BC and settled in the region between the Euxine (Black) Sea and the Caspian Sea. They later multiplied greatly and became the progenitors of the Scythians, the Cimmerians, the Celts, the Saxons, the Parthians of the Parthian Empire and the many tribes of Goths who all settled the lands of Europe. My own nation of Scotland is descended from these Scythians also called the Skuths by the Greeks. The Scottish Declaration of Independence called the Declaration of Arbroath makes mention of this fact. I believe the Pashtuns most likely are descended from those Parthians who remained in the region after the fall of the empire. Their name in the 19th. century was Pathan which has a self evident etymological connection to Parthian.

If this saying of Jesus about His mission to the lost sheep of the house of Israel is taken to mean the nations descended from these ten tribes then this is fulfilled by the spread of the Gospel in the first few centuries predominantly to all the nations of Europe after the birth of the Church on Pentecost 33 AD with the anointing of the 120 disciples by the Holy Spirit. Certainly the apostle Thomas is traditionally recorded as having carried the Gospel to India and this would confirm what you and I believe about the presence there of some of the descendants of these scattered tribes of the Northern Kingdom.

However certain prophecies in the Bible clearly indicate that the descendants of Ephraim will be "multitudes" and the Jewish historian Josephus mentions them as being extremely numerous and other evidence is very sound that the nations of Europe and their colonies are also the descendants of these tribes.

One author who has detailed these migrations is Steven M. Collins. He also embraces the dominant eschatological view of the Christian churches today which I happen to disagree with but his historical research is very thorough and well worth reading. Click to view link

Hello David, I hope you are well.

Well, good to have you on board! I don't think you accepted the theory the first time I mentioned it!:)

'Most importantly for our discussion these tribes were NOT Jews. The Jews were the tribes of the Southern Kingdom of JUDAH. These were Judah, Benjamin and Levi, the tribe from whom came the priests who served in theTemple. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and descended from King David through Solomon and Nathan. The tribe of Judah was given the "sceptre" or right to rule Israel until the ruler came to whom it belonged. "The sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; the nations will obey him." This is taken to be a Messianic prophecy referring to Jesus.'

Your definition of the 'Jews' being only those of the Israelite line of 'the kingdom of Judah' is quite technical. I refer to Jewish decent in the classical and normal usage - being of broad Israelite lineage, this is how most, even historians would use the word.

'The tribes of the Northern Kingdom were taken into captivity by the Assyrian Empire'

Agreed.

'They later multiplied greatly and became the progenitors of the Scythians, the Cimmerians, the Celts, the Saxons, the Parthians of the Parthian Empire and the many tribes of Goths who all settled the lands of Europe.'

Disagree, this is far too vast a dispersal to be plausible - in any substantial form - given the time period we are discussing, not to mention travelling and its difficulties etc. Especially when some historians claim they have located 9 tribes in the Pashtun peoples (tribes stay together they are one people in small groupings, they do not like to disperse).

Dr. Bernier, on the authority of a number of learned people, states in his Travels that the Kashmiris in reality are Jews who in the time of the dispersal in the days of the King of Assur had migrated to this country.

'If this saying of Jesus about His mission to the lost sheep of the house of Israel is taken to mean the nations descended from these ten tribes then this is fulfilled by the spread of the Gospel in the first few centuries predominantly to all the nations of Europe after the birth of the Church on Pentecost 33 AD with the anointing of the 120 disciples by the Holy Spirit.'

I would disagree with this. The biblical mission was, in my view, to be carried out personally by Jesus. Jesus was a prophet (IMHO). A prophet cannot be 'killed' at the hands of his enemy - never. He never said worship me. Father was a metaphorical term and not exclusively used by Jesus, IMHO.

Saint Paul (described as a zealous Jew before he became a Christian, see Wikipedia) has a lot to answer for - biblical interpolations and the concept of trinity. Both of which deviate away from the pristine original teachings of Jesus.

'Certainly the apostle Thomas is traditionally recorded as having carried the Gospel to India and this would confirm what you and I believe about the presence there of some of the descendants of these scattered tribes of the Northern Kingdom.'

What of the Tomb of Jesus in Kashmir etc, is it more realistic that he ascended to heaven or migrated eastwards? The trouble is interpretation. When is scripture metaphorical and when is it literal? Bodily revival and then spiritual ascension, verses bodily heavenly ascension.

Please see this free-to-read book that deals with the lost tribes (albeit from an Islamic perspective).
Click to view link

Memehunter: 2) we should believe that somehow, half of the population of the planet (most of Europe if I understand your post) originates from the tribes from a tiny small region of the Middle East?

I would agree with you here.

Memehunter: 1) we should treat the Bible as a historical document - something it most definitely isn't...

I disagree. Even though the Bible was written probably hundreds of years after Jesus, it has a lot of historical weight. Few historical accounts exist of this age and it is extremely valuable as such.

Given what is known about the distortion of historical facts, I think the Bible has great importance and weight, especially the chapter of Revelations which is probably the least tampered with chapter. Of course those who 'believe' have other reasons to value it and rightly so in their view.

  Posted by peri1224 on 07/12/11 06:10 AM

Have no time to answer all the cheap shots in your responses. Who is answering anyway, the bossman or some underling? Many of your articles contain good points and are worth reading, but when you are challenged on things Jewish you descend to a lower level of bitching and spewing venom, not matching the generally civil level here. Why is that? Can't you stay civil, or at least as civil as the post you answer? Do you have to take it not one but two levels lower?

Reply from The Daily Bell

Here, do some real reading ...

Click to view link

Here is a directed history scholar who has come the same conclusions as we have.

"The Rothschild relationship to the Jews is deceiving. The family stance is publicized as "pro-Jewish", and they have given abundant charity to Jewish causes. But their support of the Jewish race has, in most cases, been used for the sole purpose of controlling the direction and profiting from the Jews. The Rothschilds have been described as the royal family of the Jews. Many leading Rothschilds have been dubbed "King of the Jews". But what kind of Judaism do the Rothschilds support? Do they support the orthodox Jews who believe in the Old Testament and are waiting for the return of the messiah? No. Do they support Messianic Jews who believe Jesus Christ was the messiah who came to save all men? No."

And ...

"I am disappointed by some researchers, who automatically coin the conspiracy a ,,Jewish" one. This unfortunate stumbling block has polluted their work, making it just as misleading as the information put out by the popular media."

He's disappointed in YOU.

  Posted by memehunter on 07/12/11 02:36 AM

Posted by memehunter on 07/12/11 02:29 AM
"That the Rothschild family is the visible centre of world Zionism cannot be gainsaid. That they are the ultimate rulers I would question for the simple reason that they are so visible and have been for a very long time."

I read some rumors about the Payseur family (apparently a surviving branch of the Bourbons - the ruling family of France until the French Revolution) and a mysterious GAALT corporation, but these are not very well substantiated and seem to come from a limited number of sources (Springmeier in particular).

I found this summary of Springmeier's work here, for what it is worth:
Click to view link

"So now the most powerful bloodlines, the two most powerful bloodlines are the Rothschilds, represented by the Sassoons, the Rockefellers, the Oppenheimers, Morgans, et al., and the Merovinginans, represented by the Habsburgs, Payseurs, and the British Commonwealth, et al."

Regarding the relationship of the Rothschilds to Judaism, the following seems to be everywhere on the 'Net but I could not track the original source:

"The Rothschild relationship to the Jews is deceiving. The family stance is publicized as "pro-Jewish", and they have given abundant charity to Jewish causes. But their support of the Jewish race has, in most cases, been used for the sole purpose of controlling the direction and profiting from the Jews. The Rothschilds have been described as the royal family of the Jews. Many leading Rothschilds have been dubbed "King of the Jews". But what kind of Judaism do the Rothschilds support? Do they support the orthodox Jews who believe in the Old Testament and are waiting for the return of the messiah? No. Do they support Messianic Jews who believe Jesus Christ was the messiah who came to save all men? No.

The Rothschilds support those Jews who have fallen prey to the deceptive gnostic and occultic teachings of Cabalism, and in turn support the Illuminati controlled Zionist movement. Not all Zionists are part of the conspiracy, but their leaders are, and the ultimate leaders of the Zionists have been the Rothschilds. I am disappointed by some researchers, who automatically coin the conspiracy a ,,Jewish" one. This unfortunate stumbling block has polluted their work, making it just as misleading as the information put out by the popular media.

These researchers seem blinded by the fact that the conspiracy has abused and manipulated the Jewish race more than any other group in the history of the world. The hierarchy of the Jews has sat back and allowed the attack on, and control of the Jewish masses for the furtherance of Satan's agenda. I am saying this to let you see that I am not anti-semitic. I believe that there are people who call themselves "Christians" who are part of the conspiracy, at the same token there are people who call themselves "Jews" who are part of the conspiracy. To call the conspiracy "Jewish" is ignorant. I believe the Rothschilds to have been involved in Cabalism, Jewish Sabbatism, or Frankism, all of which are involved in witchcraft. This belief is strengthened by the Rothschild's use of the occultic Seal of Solomon as a family symbol. The city in which the Rothschilds originated, Frankfort, was deeply anti-Semitic. The Rothschilds were constantly striving to overcome the boundaries put on them because of their culture. It is very likely this berthed a bitterness in their hearts towards "Christian" society. This bitterness, and the need to facilitate more profit and power were most likely the reasons why they excepted the idea of a Jewish state. (I will assume that the readers understand that the Zionism / restoration of Israel concept is an unbiblical sham.)"

Addendum:
The original source for my quote about Rothschild and Judaism is also Springmeier, "Bloodlines of the Illuminati".

  Posted by memehunter on 07/12/11 02:29 AM

"That the Rothschild family is the visible centre of world Zionism cannot be gainsaid. That they are the ultimate rulers I would question for the simple reason that they are so visible and have been for a very long time."

I read some rumors about the Payseur family (apparently a surviving branch of the Bourbons - the ruling family of France until the French Revolution) and a mysterious GAALT corporation, but these are not very well substantiated and seem to come from a limited number of sources (Springmeier in particular).

I found this summary of Springmeier's work here, for what it is worth:
Click to view link

"So now the most powerful bloodlines, the two most powerful bloodlines are the Rothschilds, represented by the Sassoons, the Rockefellers, the Oppenheimers, Morgans, et al., and the Merovinginans, represented by the Habsburgs, Payseurs, and the British Commonwealth, et al."

Regarding the relationship of the Rothschilds to Judaism, the following seems to be everywhere on the 'Net but I could not track the original source:

"The Rothschild relationship to the Jews is deceiving. The family stance is publicized as "pro-Jewish", and they have given abundant charity to Jewish causes. But their support of the Jewish race has, in most cases, been used for the sole purpose of controlling the direction and profiting from the Jews. The Rothschilds have been described as the royal family of the Jews. Many leading Rothschilds have been dubbed "King of the Jews". But what kind of Judaism do the Rothschilds support? Do they support the orthodox Jews who believe in the Old Testament and are waiting for the return of the messiah? No. Do they support Messianic Jews who believe Jesus Christ was the messiah who came to save all men? No.

The Rothschilds support those Jews who have fallen prey to the deceptive gnostic and occultic teachings of Cabalism, and in turn support the Illuminati controlled Zionist movement. Not all Zionists are part of the conspiracy, but their leaders are, and the ultimate leaders of the Zionists have been the Rothschilds. I am disappointed by some researchers, who automatically coin the conspiracy a ,,Jewish" one. This unfortunate stumbling block has polluted their work, making it just as misleading as the information put out by the popular media.

These researchers seem blinded by the fact that the conspiracy has abused and manipulated the Jewish race more than any other group in the history of the world. The hierarchy of the Jews has sat back and allowed the attack on, and control of the Jewish masses for the furtherance of Satan's agenda. I am saying this to let you see that I am not anti-semitic. I believe that there are people who call themselves "Christians" who are part of the conspiracy, at the same token there are people who call themselves "Jews" who are part of the conspiracy. To call the conspiracy "Jewish" is ignorant. I believe the Rothschilds to have been involved in Cabalism, Jewish Sabbatism, or Frankism, all of which are involved in witchcraft. This belief is strengthened by the Rothschild's use of the occultic Seal of Solomon as a family symbol. The city in which the Rothschilds originated, Frankfort, was deeply anti-Semitic. The Rothschilds were constantly striving to overcome the boundaries put on them because of their culture. It is very likely this berthed a bitterness in their hearts towards "Christian" society. This bitterness, and the need to facilitate more profit and power were most likely the reasons why they excepted the idea of a Jewish state. (I will assume that the readers understand that the Zionism / restoration of Israel concept is an unbiblical sham.)"

Reply from The Daily Bell

"The Rothschild relationship to the Jews is deceiving. The family stance is publicized as "pro-Jewish", and they have given abundant charity to Jewish causes. But their support of the Jewish race has, in most cases, been used for the sole purpose of controlling the direction and profiting from the Jews. The Rothschilds have been described as the royal family of the Jews. Many leading Rothschilds have been dubbed "King of the Jews". But what kind of Judaism do the Rothschilds support? Do they support the orthodox Jews who believe in the Old Testament and are waiting for the return of the messiah? No. Do they support Messianic Jews who believe Jesus Christ was the messiah who came to save all men? No."

Thanks! This is our point exactly ...

I am disappointed by some researchers, who automatically coin the conspiracy a ,,Jewish" one. This unfortunate stumbling block has polluted their work, making it just as misleading as the information put out by the popular media.

Great stuff!

"To call the conspiracy "Jewish" is ignorant."

Springmeier seems to see clearly what we have been arguing for years! ...

  Posted by memehunter on 07/12/11 02:07 AM

Posted by David_Robertson on 07/11/11 03:14 PM
Hi Summer,

I would agree that the tribe of Eran, one of the sons of Ephraim, from whom I believe came the Aryans entered northern India during the period some time after the eighth century BC. Ephraim was one of the sons of Joseph to whom was given the birthright name of Israel. These tribes attached to Ephraim comprised the Northern Kingdom of Israel which consisted of the so called ten "lost tribes".

Most importantly for our discussion these tribes were NOT Jews. The Jews were the tribes of the Southern Kingdom of JUDAH. These were Judah, Benjamin and Levi, the tribe from whom came the priests who served in theTemple. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and descended from King David through Solomon and Nathan. The tribe of Judah was given the "sceptre" or right to rule Israel until the ruler came to whom it belonged. "The sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; the nations will obey him." This is taken to be a Messianic prophecy referring to Jesus.

The tribes of the Northern Kingdom were taken into captivity by the Assyrian Empire in the eighth century BC and settled in the region between the Euxine (Black) Sea and the Caspian Sea. They later multiplied greatly and became the progenitors of the Scythians, the Cimmerians, the Celts, the Saxons, the Parthians of the Parthian Empire and the many tribes of Goths who all settled the lands of Europe. My own nation of Scotland is descended from these Scythians also called the Skuths by the Greeks. The Scottish Declaration of Independence called the Declaration of Arbroath makes mention of this fact. I believe the Pashtuns most likely are descended from those Parthians who remained in the region after the fall of the empire. Their name in the 19th. century was Pathan which has a self evident etymological connection to Parthian.

If this saying of Jesus about His mission to the lost sheep of the house of Israel is taken to mean the nations descended from these ten tribes then this is fulfilled by the spread of the Gospel in the first few centuries predominantly to all the nations of Europe after the birth of the Church on Pentecost 33 AD with the anointing of the 120 disciples by the Holy Spirit. Certainly the apostle Thomas is traditionally recorded as having carried the Gospel to India and this would confirm what you and I believe about the presence there of some of the descendants of these scattered tribes of the Northern Kingdom.

However certain prophecies in the Bible clearly indicate that the descendants of Ephraim will be "multitudes" and the Jewish historian Josephus mentions them as being extremely numerous and other evidence is very sound that the nations of Europe and their colonies are also the descendants of these tribes.

One author who has detailed these migrations is Steven M. Collins. He also embraces the dominant eschatological view of the Christian churches today which I happen to disagree with but his historical research is very thorough and well worth reading. Click to view link

David,

You know that I enjoy reading your posts but honestly I do not understand why

1) we should treat the Bible as a historical document - something it most definitely isn't and

2) we should believe that somehow, half of the population of the planet (most of Europe if I understand your post) originates from the tribes from a tiny small region of the Middle East?

I respect your Christian faith but I do not give much credence to the historical/anthropological theories derived from Biblical exegesis.

Reply from The Daily Bell

David is obviously a very learned - even tolerant - person, but you have a point.

  Posted by Thomas Molitor on 07/11/11 08:42 PM

The Economist cover story, "Back to the coffee house," begins by asserting that "the internet has turned the news industry upside down, making it more participatory, as it used to be before the arrival of the mass media." DB states that the internet is equivalent to the Gutenberg press in democratizing information distribution. My questions is, Has the internet made democracy more participatory? Or, as Murray Rothbard addresses on his posted video on this site, Are we just talking to each other without any impact on policy?

Reply from The Daily Bell

Well ... we would argue that the American Tea Party and European unrest have both had an impact on policy. And we would argue that the Internet has played a role ...

  Posted by David_Robertson on 07/11/11 03:14 PM

Posted by Summer on 07/11/11 12:06 PM
DB: "Where are the lost Tribes of Israel and what are they are?"

I've said it before and I'll say it again - they are probably the people of Kashmir and surrounding areas - largely the Pashtun tribes. And they are now Muslims. On this premise, they can be ethnically described (broadly) as of Jewish descent.

Click to view link

Hi Summer,

I would agree that the tribe of Eran, one of the sons of Ephraim, from whom I believe came the Aryans entered northern India during the period some time after the eighth century BC. Ephraim was one of the sons of Joseph to whom was given the birthright name of Israel. These tribes attached to Ephraim comprised the Northern Kingdom of Israel which consisted of the so called ten "lost tribes".

Most importantly for our discussion these tribes were NOT Jews. The Jews were the tribes of the Southern Kingdom of JUDAH. These were Judah, Benjamin and Levi, the tribe from whom came the priests who served in theTemple. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and descended from King David through Solomon and Nathan. The tribe of Judah was given the "sceptre" or right to rule Israel until the ruler came to whom it belonged. "The sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; the nations will obey him." This is taken to be a Messianic prophecy referring to Jesus.

The tribes of the Northern Kingdom were taken into captivity by the Assyrian Empire in the eighth century BC and settled in the region between the Euxine (Black) Sea and the Caspian Sea. They later multiplied greatly and became the progenitors of the Scythians, the Cimmerians, the Celts, the Saxons, the Parthians of the Parthian Empire and the many tribes of Goths who all settled the lands of Europe. My own nation of Scotland is descended from these Scythians also called the Skuths by the Greeks. The Scottish Declaration of Independence called the Declaration of Arbroath makes mention of this fact. I believe the Pashtuns most likely are descended from those Parthians who remained in the region after the fall of the empire. Their name in the 19th. century was Pathan which has a self evident etymological connection to Parthian.

If this saying of Jesus about His mission to the lost sheep of the house of Israel is taken to mean the nations descended from these ten tribes then this is fulfilled by the spread of the Gospel in the first few centuries predominantly to all the nations of Europe after the birth of the Church on Pentecost 33 AD with the anointing of the 120 disciples by the Holy Spirit. Certainly the apostle Thomas is traditionally recorded as having carried the Gospel to India and this would confirm what you and I believe about the presence there of some of the descendants of these scattered tribes of the Northern Kingdom.

However certain prophecies in the Bible clearly indicate that the descendants of Ephraim will be "multitudes" and the Jewish historian Josephus mentions them as being extremely numerous and other evidence is very sound that the nations of Europe and their colonies are also the descendants of these tribes.

One author who has detailed these migrations is Steven M. Collins. He also embraces the dominant eschatological view of the Christian churches today which I happen to disagree with but his historical research is very thorough and well worth reading. Click to view link

  Posted by Summer on 07/11/11 12:06 PM

DB: "Where are the lost Tribes of Israel and what are they are?"

I've said it before and I'll say it again - they are probably the people of Kashmir and surrounding areas - largely the Pashtun tribes. And they are now Muslims. On this premise, they can be ethnically described (broadly) as of Jewish descent.

Click to view link

  Posted by Thomas Molitor on 07/11/11 11:52 AM

Equationally speaking, are you suggesting that social media = easy social control for the the power elite? That blogs = less social control for the PE? If memes are the tools of the PE, then by definition memes spread faster on Facebook than a blog. Evolutionary, then, mass marketing has become math marketing.

Reply from The Daily Bell

Yes but social media is easily controlled from the top down. One can easily influence the conversation (or even ban it) with the flick of a switch.

  Posted by David_Robertson on 07/11/11 09:20 AM

Posted by memehunter on 07/11/11 01:02 AM
Thanks for your feedback. Clearly, I am not in a position to decide which interpretation of Blake's work is the most convincing one. But, in addition to the links I provided in my earlier comment (reposted below), I found a third one linking Blake specifically with the Swedenborgians:

William Blake and the British Israelite Tradition

Click to view link

This talk consider the mystical influences upon William Blake and ask how much the British Israelite Tradition played a part in this.

The year 2007 marks the 250th Anniversary of the birth of William Blake, London's famous mystical poet and artist. Yet little is understood of the mystical influences that inspired him. He had a profound interest in the teachings of the Illuminati like Paracelsus; Jacob Boeheme; Swedenborg; Bacon and Newton. But was this interest the result of an encounter early in his life? He was sent to Westminster Abbey, a young apprentice engraver and had a to make graphics of all the relics and royal effigies for months on end because he argued too much in the workshop. Did the oracle stir his fertile imagination as he sat often alone in the sacred inauguration place of monarchs of these islands? Did he seek thereafter the arcane knowledge beloved of Freemasonic and esoteric groups, which is known as 'The British Israelite Tradition'? This theme certainly appears in his work and particularly in his last great epic, the illuminated books on Milton and Jerusalem and its most memorable verse, "and did those feet in ancient times….". What heart is not moved by Albion? that Angelic muse of the English-speaking peoples when enmasse they sing, "I will not cease from mental fight nor shall my sword sleep in my hand till we have built Jerusalem on England's green and pleasant land".



A Feral Visionary

Click to view link

A relevant excerpt:
Blake was also a believer in 'free love' and was something of a champion for women's rights. This included complete sexual freedom for the fair sex, something that no doubt found resonance with Mary Wollstonecraft and her circle. He was quite an admirer of the American and French revolutions, though he hated war and deplored the aftermath of the French revolt with its bloody years of the guillotine. He is known to have warned the visiting American radical, Thomas Paine, of an imminent arrest, which was then narrowly averted by a flight to France. All this radicalism, and the man was still a devout and true Christian. Well, sort of. He loathed the church and organized religion in general and tended to see it as more of a yoke for the soul than anything that might free it.



William Blake and the Radical Swedenborgians:

Click to view link

An excerpt:
In the poetry of Jerusalem, Blake would equally rejected the notion of a 'God who dwells in Chaos hidden from the human sight' (23.30; E168), 'in the dreary Void … wide separated from the Human Soul' (28.16; E174). The counter-theology offered is that 'the Lord' is seen as 'Universal Humanity,' the 'form a Man' (96.1-6; E255). In fact, Blake argues a concordant notion throughout his writing: as early as in the 'Divine Image' of Songs of Innocence, he speaks of'the Human Form Divine' (E12-13). Blake's aversion against a distant sky-god is spelled out in his satire of'old Nobodaddy aloft,' who is the Christian Churches' Godhead put to political use. In the poetry of Blake's Notebook, he proclaims to'love hanging & drawing & quartering' (the punishment for High Treason against the State) and condemns those who'rebel' to'go to hell' (E499).


These paint a radically different picture of Blake from the one you propose...

"These paint a radically different picture of Blake from the one you propose..."

Only if you believe that I was saying something other than I was saying. He was a man seeking the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. He rebelled against the form of religion of his day in his life, poetry and his art. He did not rebel against the God and Saviour of the World the Lord Jesus Christ. In his search he touched on many different strands of revelation and expressed them in his work.

One of my favourite writers is Jeanne Guyon a French woman of the 17th. century who is also called a mystic but is simply a woman seeking the Kingdom of God and His righteousness as we are all commanded to do. Perhaps Blake was acquainted with her writings also. She spent seven years in prison for her faith and was misunderstood and maligned her entire life just like Blake.

What Blake was trying to do was what every true believer does: to simply express in his life and work the reality that was his faith, THE FAITH of the Lord Jesus Christ. The revelation that is available to all believers is that there is one God and Father of us all and one Mediator between God and man the Man Christ Jesus. God is Spirit but He has purposed to unite the whole physical realm in Himself and the Way He has done this is through the Lord Jesus Christ Who was the first and only Son of God, the Perfect Man who is the express image of God the Father. This is why His Body is broken for us so that we might partake of Him, become a member of His Body.

In Christ it has been God's purpose since before the creation of all things to bring the entire universe back into Himself and to accomplish this He has now sent the Holy Spirit in measure which is the Spirit of Christ to give new Life to all who believe in Him. For the past two thousand years the Spirt has been calling out men and women from the nations to build them into the many membered Body of Christ which has been the determined purpose of God for this past age. Just as in the natural birth the Head came first and now the many membered Body is about to come to birth, i.e. into visible manifestation.

This was only possible because Jesus died and rose again and ascended to present the price of redemption His blood in the Holy of Holies in the heavenly tabernacle. In doing so He redeemed all of mankind from the bondage of sin and death and exchanged His blood (a symbol of the life of all mortal men inherited from their first father Adam) in exchange for the Life of God Himself which is in His Spirit. This is why He is called the Last Adam in Whom we shall all inherit immortality and incorruption each in our own order.

After His resurrection He ascended high above all the heavens to fill the universe to the place of absolute sovereignty, the right hand of God, where He now rules until all things have been brought under His feet. Then He will offer up the Kingdom to the One Who has put all things under His feet, God the Father, and God will be all in all.

These revelations and more have always been there in the sacred scriptures but God has withheld them from the many revealing them only to the few. The Christian Church has developed as an institution over the past two thousand years but only a few within her walls have followed on to know the Lord in the fellowship of His sufferings so that they might know Him in the power of His resurrection. From what I know of William Blake he was one of the few. This is why he has become widely known only in this past half century just as these revelations have received a wider currency but still only to the few. They have been rejected by the Christian churches at large just as was Blake but this is also the purpose of God for this time.

  Posted by memehunter on 07/11/11 01:02 AM

Posted by David_Robertson on 07/10/11 03:59 PM
There have been many interpretations of William Blake's work and each seems to conform to the preferences of the interpreter.

My own view is that his imagery is bound up in the symbols of his time and that he was a simple spiritual man not at all interested in esotericism even though the gnostics have apparently granted him sainthood. His parents were Moravians who belonged to that sect through whom the Wesley brothers received their baptism in the Holy Spirit and their true conversion while on their way to preach in Georgia. Blake was loved by his parents and would have received from them their deep and abiding faith to which he adhered to all his life. He was not a conventional religious man seeing the trappings of the formal religion of the time for what it was, an empty show.

I believe that the hymn Jerusalem that you quote is related to the tradition that Jesus visited the British Isles with His uncle Joseph of Arimathea who was the Minister of Mines for the Roman Empire. Joseph visited the tin mines of Cornwall which he owned and then returned to this part of Britain after the resurrection to convert the British royal family and the military commander Caradoc who is mentioned with others of the British royal family in Paul's letter to the Romans. Click to view link

The building of Jerusalem is a spiritual vision and this is how Blake is using it. The New Jerusalem to which he is referring is the Kingdom of God that Blake sees being built in the hearts and minds of the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the only antidote to the satanic enslavement of the people that is pictured by Blake in his description of the cotton and woollen mills springing up all over England during the industrial revolution drawing workers off the land and housing them in dreadful hovels in the sickness, poverty and death with which Blake himself was well acquainted. Over against this Blake sees the well padded pews of the gentry of the Church of England against which he rebelled all his life as a dissenter.

Blake was also familiar with the writings of Jacob Boehme the 16th./17th. century Christian mystic whose visions and writings must have influenced him. Click to view link

There is nothing in anything I have read of Blake that suggests that he was other than an orthodox Christian dissenter whose relationship with the Lord was active, committed and blessed with many visions. He was married faithfully and for the most part happily to one wife for 45 years and the account of his death with his singing of hymns and reciting spiritual verses betokens a faithful follower of the Lord Jesus departing into the presence of his Saviour and Lord.

Thanks for your feedback. Clearly, I am not in a position to decide which interpretation of Blake's work is the most convincing one. But, in addition to the links I provided in my earlier comment (reposted below), I found a third one linking Blake specifically with the Swedenborgians:

William Blake and the British Israelite Tradition

Click to view link

This talk consider the mystical influences upon William Blake and ask how much the British Israelite Tradition played a part in this.

The year 2007 marks the 250th Anniversary of the birth of William Blake, London's famous mystical poet and artist. Yet little is understood of the mystical influences that inspired him. He had a profound interest in the teachings of the Illuminati like Paracelsus; Jacob Boeheme; Swedenborg; Bacon and Newton. But was this interest the result of an encounter early in his life? He was sent to Westminster Abbey, a young apprentice engraver and had a to make graphics of all the relics and royal effigies for months on end because he argued too much in the workshop. Did the oracle stir his fertile imagination as he sat often alone in the sacred inauguration place of monarchs of these islands? Did he seek thereafter the arcane knowledge beloved of Freemasonic and esoteric groups, which is known as 'The British Israelite Tradition'? This theme certainly appears in his work and particularly in his last great epic, the illuminated books on Milton and Jerusalem and its most memorable verse, "and did those feet in ancient times….". What heart is not moved by Albion? that Angelic muse of the English-speaking peoples when enmasse they sing, "I will not cease from mental fight nor shall my sword sleep in my hand till we have built Jerusalem on England's green and pleasant land".



A Feral Visionary

Click to view link

A relevant excerpt:
Blake was also a believer in 'free love' and was something of a champion for women's rights. This included complete sexual freedom for the fair sex, something that no doubt found resonance with Mary Wollstonecraft and her circle. He was quite an admirer of the American and French revolutions, though he hated war and deplored the aftermath of the French revolt with its bloody years of the guillotine. He is known to have warned the visiting American radical, Thomas Paine, of an imminent arrest, which was then narrowly averted by a flight to France. All this radicalism, and the man was still a devout and true Christian. Well, sort of. He loathed the church and organized religion in general and tended to see it as more of a yoke for the soul than anything that might free it.



William Blake and the Radical Swedenborgians:

Click to view link

An excerpt:
In the poetry of Jerusalem, Blake would equally rejected the notion of a 'God who dwells in Chaos hidden from the human sight' (23.30; E168), 'in the dreary Void … wide separated from the Human Soul' (28.16; E174). The counter-theology offered is that 'the Lord' is seen as 'Universal Humanity,' the 'form a Man' (96.1-6; E255). In fact, Blake argues a concordant notion throughout his writing: as early as in the 'Divine Image' of Songs of Innocence, he speaks of'the Human Form Divine' (E12-13). Blake's aversion against a distant sky-god is spelled out in his satire of'old Nobodaddy aloft,' who is the Christian Churches' Godhead put to political use. In the poetry of Blake's Notebook, he proclaims to'love hanging & drawing & quartering' (the punishment for High Treason against the State) and condemns those who'rebel' to'go to hell' (E499).


These paint a radically different picture of Blake from the one you propose...

  Posted by David_Robertson on 07/10/11 03:59 PM

Posted by memehunter on 07/10/11 01:50 PM
About British Israel:

There have been rumors for a while now that the logo for the 2012 Olympics spells "Zion". In fact, Iran threatened to boycott the 2012 Olympics unless the logo was replaced:
Click to view link

As far as I can tell, the first one to make this connection was Rik Clay, who interestingly "committed suicide" only a few days after making his findings public. You can draw your own conclusions about the "suicide". Clay claims that "2012 is to see London established as the 'New Jerusalem' for a New World Order (a global government under a one world religion)" through the ultimate false flag, i.e. a fake alien invasion. While many of his arguments involve numerology and other esoteric aspects that I will not summarize here, there were two points that I thought were particularly interesting:

1. The man in charge of the company which designed the logo, Wally Olins, is of Jewish origin and likely a Freemason (he himself admitted in an audio interview that his father was a Freemason and persuaded him to become one). This company has designed many other logos recognized worldwide, such as the current logos for Shell and BP.

2. Clay also quotes William Blake's poem "Jerusalem" (1804):

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark Satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold:
Bring me my arrows of desire:
Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire.

I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.

Clay then adds: "An 18th century writer, artist and esotericist, William Blake had connections with
Freemasonry. Was this early work a declaration of the esoteric agenda, for all to see? After
all he was 'involved'."

Some relevant links about Blake:

William Blake and the British Israelite Tradition
Click to view link

A Feral Visionary
Click to view link


Whether or not Clay is right, this is interesting in light of the "British Israel" connection.

There have been many interpretations of William Blake's work and each seems to conform to the preferences of the interpreter.

My own view is that his imagery is bound up in the symbols of his time and that he was a simple spiritual man not at all interested in esotericism even though the gnostics have apparently granted him sainthood. His parents were Moravians who belonged to that sect through whom the Wesley brothers received their baptism in the Holy Spirit and their true conversion while on their way to preach in Georgia. Blake was loved by his parents and would have received from them their deep and abiding faith to which he adhered to all his life. He was not a conventional religious man seeing the trappings of the formal religion of the time for what it was, an empty show.

I believe that the hymn Jerusalem that you quote is related to the tradition that Jesus visited the British Isles with His uncle Joseph of Arimathea who was the Minister of Mines for the Roman Empire. Joseph visited the tin mines of Cornwall which he owned and then returned to this part of Britain after the resurrection to convert the British royal family and the military commander Caradoc who is mentioned with others of the British royal family in Paul's letter to the Romans. Click to view link

The building of Jerusalem is a spiritual vision and this is how Blake is using it. The New Jerusalem to which he is referring is the Kingdom of God that Blake sees being built in the hearts and minds of the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the only antidote to the satanic enslavement of the people that is pictured by Blake in his description of the cotton and woollen mills springing up all over England during the industrial revolution drawing workers off the land and housing them in dreadful hovels in the sickness, poverty and death with which Blake himself was well acquainted. Over against this Blake sees the well padded pews of the gentry of the Church of England against which he rebelled all his life as a dissenter.

Blake was also familiar with the writings of Jacob Boehme the 16th./17th. century Christian mystic whose visions and writings must have influenced him. Click to view link

There is nothing in anything I have read of Blake that suggests that he was other than an orthodox Christian dissenter whose relationship with the Lord was active, committed and blessed with many visions. He was married faithfully and for the most part happily to one wife for 45 years and the account of his death with his singing of hymns and reciting spiritual verses betokens a faithful follower of the Lord Jesus departing into the presence of his Saviour and Lord.

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