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Nationalize Banking? Or Apologize for the Suggestion ...
Breaking Up the Big Banks is Not a Solution: Make Them Public Utilities ... Leo Panitch: Global capitalism needs massive banks, but big private banks have the power to prevent regulation and threaten more crisis; the solution is not breaking them up but making them public – The Real News
Dominant Social Theme: Since we can't regulate these too-big-to-fail banks, let's nationalize 'em.
Free-Market Analysis: Leo Panitch has the idea that because "private banking" is not working very well, banks ought to be turned into purely public facilities. Say what?
In our humble view, this is akin to the neo-Nazi idea of late that has to do with nationalizing central banking in order to ensure that the "people" gain maximum advantage from the debasement of their money. Didn't the USSR try something like this?
Where do they get these guys? What planet, exactly, do they live on? The power elite that wants to run the world – formally as opposed to informally – delights in the idea that the gullible public will attempt to remove its influence by moving Money Power to the public sphere. So why are they encouraging it?
Since Money Power thrives on mercantilism – using government for private purposes – more government and more public power suits the elites just fine. One can make the argument that those advancing these solutions are actively working on behalf of the same Money Power they purport to despise.
The concept does have one advantage: It is simple. The idea that fiat money systems can somehow be made better if their destructive attributes are wielded by "the people" rather than "the banksters" is a beguiling one for those who don't understand economic history, or purposefully misconstrue it.
Add in the truly nutty idea that these banks ought to be forbidden from charging interest and you have achieved the illusory goal of free money for everyone. Rhetorically, it sounds good. Realistically, wherever it's been tried, it's been a disaster.
Just who is Panitch? According to the article, an interview actually, Panitch is "the Canada Research Chair in Comparative Political Economy and a Distinguished Research Professor of Political Science at York University in Toronto." He is also the coauthor of Global Capitalism and the American Empire and The Making of Global Capitalism.
Panitch was interviewed by The Real News Network on the "state of the global economy" among other topics. Here are some excerpts:
Americans have less and less control over their economic lives and almost no say on the direction of the economy. Their jobs are insecure, wages are stagnating, debts are growing, retirement is underfunded and a health care crisis could wipe them out. At the same, the wealthiest are getting wealthier, controlling a greater share of the wealth than any time in U.S. history. Their connections to political leadership ensure that economic elites face little risk in our crony capitalist economy.
While many Americans are in a race to the bottom, the tiny percentage at the top of the economy is racing to the stratosphere of unimaginable wealth.
What is the next evolution of the U.S. economy? How can it be reshaped so that people gain greater control of their lives and greater influence over the economy? Democratizing the economy would move the United States away from crony capitalism and create an economy where wealth is more equitably shared. People are already putting in place programs that democratize the economy, giving them greater influence and control over their economic lives.
Around the world in Spain, Greece, Egypt, Tunisia . . . the people are revolting against austerity and oligarchs controlling wealth. In fact, the wealth divide in the U.S., where the top 1% has wealth equal to the bottom 95%, is even greater than in these other nations.
We're at that juncture where it looks like there ought to be more regulation of these massive financial institutions. But the type of regulation that they've been operating under for a very long time now is a type that facilitates the kind of role they play in ... is, greasing the wheels of global capitalism, including, I might say, ensuring that states are able to sell the bonds they need in order to cover their own expenditures, not least the American state ...
The only way in which one can get out of this—and, you know, one doesn't say this in any sense for ideological reasons any longer. It's quite pragmatic. The only way you can get out of it is to turn these financial institutions into public utilities.
Build sustainable local living economies Democratize the money supply Create publicly owned banks Create worker and consumer owned businesses Develop participatory budgets Fight and prevent foreclosures Fight for health care reform and alternative health delivery systems ...
The much more pragmatic and possible thing to do is to take these very large banks into the public domain and turn them into public utilities and have them serve the functions that are needed, in terms of a financial market, in a way that is determined by state policy and by a system of democratic planning, so that the decisions they now make about where things will be invested and into what they'll be invested would be made in relation to democratic public policymaking, that to—of course, I entirely grant, to imagine democratic public policymaking would entail a fundamental change in the American state and the party system.
This is really incredible. The problems in the world are mostly the result of a lack of competition. The Invisible Hand has been chopped off at the elbow. Without restraint, the four horsemen of the financial apocalypse – Cronyism, Mercantilism, Corruption and Authoritarianism – ride abroad and leave ruin in their wake.
Each of these is a direct result of the conflation of the public with the private. Lacking the coercion of government power, those who abuse the public trust would be denuded of the necessary weapons.
But that's not Panitch's solution. Seeing the mess that's been created by too-big-to-fail banks, he proposes ... more of the same. He wants to take a bad situation and make it worse.
In the end, with the bombs falling, Hitler simply instructed his bankers as to what interest rates he wanted and how much money should be printed. Roosevelt, grinning, fixed the price of gold every morning from his bed. These two men spoke for "the people" and were doing the will of the people – or so they claimed, and who was left to dispute? That is how "the people's" business often ends up. A single thug maneuvers himself into a position of authority and purports to speak for everyone else.
Much better, isn't it, to pursue a system of DECENTRALIZATION where no single individual can assume the mantle of authority to speak for all?
Conclusion: Panitch is an academic and this apparently means he never has to say he's sorry. He should.
Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 02/11/13 11:32 PM
You're welcome Ingo
I hope you don't mind me trying to move you a little closer to the Danube. I figure it's a lost cause but at least you listen, and I learn in the effort. Home again finally. Alot to catch up on. I went to the school site and found that your regular email is no longer listed, and I never wrote it down.
Posted by Bischoff on 02/02/13 05:32 PM
Thanks for the link. It did work. I have read the article to which you referred, as well as some written in German.
Without going into detail, it should come as no surprise to you that I have differences with the Austrians, and Thorsten Polleit describes himself as an "Austrian", and he proves it by his opinions.
My leanings regarding monetary theory is toward the German economists, notably Heinrich Rittershausen.
Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 02/02/13 01:54 AM
It is basically a condensation of Fiat Money and Collective Corruption, The Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics, Vol.14,#4, 397-415
Easily gotten to from
Click to view link
That is Thorsten - Polleit . com
Click articles. There are only a couple in English but I guess you read German anyway.
Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 02/02/13 01:37 AM
Apparently the only way I can send it without saving it is through Facebook. I am not going to save it to a computer that is not mine, and I do not and never will have a Facebook account.
The link does not take me directly to the article but clicking daily on the far left of top bar lists all of the articles designated as such.
Banking and the State 2/1/13
Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 02/01/13 09:17 PM
I am not home, so I am not on my own computer, and won't be for at least another week. It is a bit long for here. If I can send it directly I will. If not, I will copy the article and send it to your school email but don't expect it till mid Feb. I have been working on something and will send a preview of it to you at the same time. It should not be any more than a couple thousand words.
Posted by Bischoff on 02/01/13 08:32 PM
I have tried everything to get to the article to which you refer. I tried the link from the DB site, I tried the URL you gave me, and I tried the home page of the Mises website to get to the article. Nothing worked.
If the article isn't too long, can you copy it and post it here, or take the main argument and expound on it... ???
Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 02/01/13 12:54 PM
As your post(s) explain(s) quite well, it is not only the instincts but the situation those instincts perceive that is the problem. The 16th and 17th have with out doubt made our national situation worse, by destroying the balance of power between the states and the federal government, among other things. One other circumstance that is particularly egrigous, as you well know and explain continually to the benefit of others, is the relationship between banking and government. Without extremely secretive and great exersions by bankers the Federal Reserve would not exist, and neither would the 16th and 17th amendments to the U. S. Constitution. Bankers have continuously pushed for these sorts of arangements, and there have always been some in government who wished for them as well. Mises Daily, today, features an excellent essay by Thorsten Polleit, explaining in plain language why this is so, and how it corruptes the rest of society.
Banking and the State
Click to view link
Just in case the link doesn't work.
Mises. org / daily / 63141 / Banking - and - the - state
Homeschoolers should get this at an early age. Perhaps it could be incorporated into other school curricula as well.
You might even decide to use it yourself.
Posted by ralph schindler on 01/31/13 09:58 PM
Did white become color in the long process of making GOLD???????????? Ralph Schindler Sr.
Posted by Bischoff on 01/31/13 09:55 PM
TAXMAN: "Is such a default in office, an impeachable/indictable offence or is there a valid defence and immunity granted for such ignorance being allowed? Methinks that however, would/should be classified as a crime against humanity and most definitely against the peoples and Constitution of the United States, don't you?"
BISCHOFF: For Obama to exist as president provides proof that government has strayed completely, and that society itself has capitulated on be moral though the original Constitution still stands as a moral document.
It was only with the ratification of the 16th and 17th Amendments in 1913 that immorality was actually embedded in the U.S. Constitution. The full effect of these two amendments in undermining the intent of the original Constitution is only now being felt in its full force.
The majority of people have given in to following basic human instinct. When 51% can vote for a living, while 49% have to work for a living, morality in society is gone.
Only focused education, be it from an unbiased education system (which is unlikely to happen)or from churches and families, can be of help now to turn things around, and to wake people up to moral action, or to know that otherwise they will loose their liberty.
Yes, all public officials swear to uphold the Constitution. The majority then promptly violate it. Because "everybody does it", it is very difficult to go against a single violator, while the others get away scott free.
However, rather than punish millions of public officials for violating their constitutional oath, it would be best to repeal the two constitutional amendments, who since 1913 have promoted and justified immoral conduct on the part of public officials.
Posted by Bischoff on 01/31/13 09:19 PM
MARSMAN: "Is it then right for one and all to conclude that the Constitution of the US is being systemically ignored and abused by the powers that be and by those who hold elected public office and by those who support and finance their operations/schemes and scams, right up to the very top of the tree/pyramid and the Oval Office/White House/Executive Presidency of the US ... ... with a sitting president who would be defaulting and in breach of the sworn oath of office which he freely and very publicly gave to the people, and to the world ... ... . "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."
BISCHOFF: Yes, one can conclude that it is unchecked human instinct which has brought about all the maladies you list. The Constitution is a guideline which in and off itself does nothing, if not followed. The Constitution requires people who are moral, in other words people who are willing to check detrimental human instincts to further the betterment of society.
Government is a back up institution, if habituation to be moral fails to be provided by the family. Statesmen help the people to be moral. Politicians appeal to basic human instincts to gain power. Instincts are always more determinant than habituations in evoking conduct.
From the very minute the U.S. Constitution was ratified, the appeal by certain politicians to basic human instinct promoted the violation of the Constitution. This is proof that the effort to get around the provision of the Constitution which require moral conduct is as old as the Constitution itself.
However, the ratification of the 16th and 17th Amendments materially undermined the Constitution itself by embedding in it justification for immoral and unwise conduct.
There is now little to be gained from lamenting the present day of affairs, or to blame the "powers to be", whoever they are. Their conduct is easy to understand in light of basic human nature. Our problem is education to understand that to create a level playing field with equal opportunity for all, one has to counter basic instincts, and do what is moral.
Posted by WorkingClass on 01/31/13 05:02 AM
The Fed, the Treasury and the TBTF banks are already one thing. It's too late to nationalize the banks. They have already nationalized us.
Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 01/31/13 12:57 AM
Wheather or not it is impeachable is up to the House to decide but they are nearly all playing the same game, so they will not. So it is not only the president, or even just the administration that are indictable. But that does not stop at the congress or even at the entire government. The electorate have re-installed them, knowing full well that they have only been paying lipservice to the Constitution, and even doing that badly.
It is only from an individual, and he of no authority, real or even pretended but I hearby indict the majority of the U. S. electorate for treason against their country, and indeed against the human race.
Posted by amanfromMars on 01/31/13 12:37 AM
[quote]BISCHOFF: Our Founding Fathers understood human nature. They understood that human instincts, genetically developed in our ancestors for survival in an arboreal environment, are in many instances detrimental to survival in terrestria.
They understood the necessity for government to back up the requirement for habituation of human offspring by their parents to allow them to peacefully coexist on terra firma.
The founders also were extremely insightful as to how to structure government to allow a maximum of individual liberty without jeopardizing the survival of the society as a whole." ... . Posted by Bischoff on 01/30/13 10:09 PM [/quote]
Good Morning and Good Day and Great 0Day, Bischoff/Daily Bell,
Is it then right for one and all to conclude that the Constitution of the US is being systemically ignored and abused by the powers that be and by those who hold elected public office and by those who support and finance their operations/schemes and scams, right up to the very top of the tree/pyramid and the Oval Office/White House/Executive Presidency of the US ... ... with a sitting president who would be defaulting and in breach of the sworn oath of office which he freely and very publicly gave to the people, and to the world ... ... . "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Obviously does he not faithfully execute/serve the office of the POTUS nor does he have the necessary ability to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States whenever wars and oppression are tools which he uses and tolerates use of in their name.
And that would have him extraordinarily rendered a fraud and puppet in office and therefore liable to summary dismissal? And would such a situation be akin to treason?
Or are you saying something completely different, Bischoff, and all of the above is not true and relevant? Let's cut to the chase here on the Daily Bell and start talking about core source problems rather than just tinkering about around the edges of things and matters, which never ever solves anything anywhere. Such prevarication only makes matters considerably worse, and that appears to be exactly what is happening as we hear and see what is shared as news every day.
Is such a default in office, an impeachable/indictable offence or is there a valid defence and immunity granted for such ignorance being allowed? Methinks that however, would/should be classified as a crime against humanity and most definitely against the peoples and Constitution of the United States, don't you?
What says the Daily Bell and erudite Daily Bell ringers on such an horrendous matter and perverse state of affairs? The world and his dog would like to know ... . for they/we hunger for knowledge and intelligence to set them free from tyranny and slave rule. Such ravenous hunger is certainly the case with I, and I cannot and do not believe that I am alone in that fabulous search and fantastic journey of many trails.
Posted by Bischoff on 01/31/13 12:10 AM
SCHINDLER: "WORK comes from stored energy that produces various VALUES that produces various individual and community WEALTH."
BISCHOFF: WORK is the application of FORCE over DISTANCE. Its unit of measure is the JOULE. Stored energy is potential energy. Kinetic energy is energy in motion.
That WORK, which is the concern of political economy, is the FORCE (measured in NEWTONS) which human exertion (LABOR) applies on or to LAND (natural resources) with or without the use of tools (CAPITAL).
The product of WORK applied to LAND is WEALTH. WORK is applied to create WEALTH with USE VALUE. Nobody applies WORK to create a product for which there is no use. It is MONEY which allows the USE VALUE of a product to be converted into an EXCHANGE VALUE for that product.
Under the gold standard, VALUE is measured by the WORK required to mine and refine a specific quantity and fineness of gold bullion. It is the standard measurement of value provided by gold which allows EXCHANGE VALUES to be discovered in arbitrage (MARKETS).
CURRENCY is a means of exchange. Gold is NOT a good currency. However, only gold is MONEY by virtue of the fact that it is THE commodity with constant marginal utility. No other commodity has that feature. Therefore, gold has VALUE, but it does not have a PRICE. The price of any other good and commodity is expressed in terms of aliquot parts of gold. The value of gold can change depending on the WORK required to mine and refine a specific quantity of it. However, in the discovery of EXCHANGE VALUES for all other goods and commodities in MARKETS, the aliquot parts of gold in which the EXCHANGE VALUE is stated never change. It is known as the STANDARD OF PRICE. (I know, its a tough concept to get clear in one's mind).
Since 90% of all the WORK applied results in products (WEALTH) intended for immediate consumption (within 90 days), there is no necessity to use gold as CURRENCY to facilitate the exchange. The production and exchange of consumer items can be accomplished through CLEARING instruments. The ideal clearing instrument was proposed with the Real Bills Doctrine developed by Adam Smith. This doctrine allows banks to create paper currency against the value of Real Bills acquired at discount for payment with gold.
RBD CURRENCY which is redeemable, meaning it carries the VALUE STANDARD of gold and can be redeemed for gold, can be used for savings and investments. Otherwise, RBD currency expires when the Real Bills against which the currency was created, mature and are paid at the end on 90 days.
RBD currency expands and contracts with demand for consumption items. It is never inflationary. At the same time, if it is redeemable, it carries with it the VALUE STANDARD of gold.
The idea of creating paper currency sprinkled with gold, silver or platinum is down right looney. What's the purpose... ???
Posted by Bischoff on 01/30/13 10:09 PM
TIMOORE: "Our Founding Fathers knew, from experience, that the human race is flawed. Hence, our Constitution was created to prevent any authority from being more powerful than another."
BISCHOFF: Our Founding Fathers understood human nature. They understood that human instincts, genetically developed in our ancestors for survival in an arboreal environment, are in many instances detrimental to survival in terrestria.
They understood the necessity for government to back up the requirement for habituation of human offspring by their parents to allow them to peacefully coexist on terra firma.
The founders also were extremely insightful as to how to structure government to allow a maximum of individual liberty without jeopardizing the survival of the society as a whole.
Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 01/30/13 02:40 PM
Neat solution DB. It seems to me that Bill could eventally become a well written and aggressive convert.
Posted by amanfromMars on 01/30/13 10:46 AM
"DB: The problems in the world are mostly the result of a lack of competition."
The problems in the world are mostly the result of a lack of alternative applications and systemic ignorance which results in a lack of competition ... which is similar but quite different. However, it is being stealthily and sublimely addressed with the sharing of constructive, disruptive intelligence across novel secure networks which cannot be denied easily as not being true …… and you can all thank the internet for that application.
Posted by dave jr on 01/30/13 07:42 AM
billfalberg: "My immediate problem is a total lack of clarity in regards to the role of corporations in a free-market economy and/or a democratic political systems."
The reason to incorporate is a defensive one, creating an identity as a layer of protection between the market and proprietors to absorb possible liability. The State is happy to oblige by recognizing the new taxable entity. Proprietors are not forced to incorporate and it is not a charter (permission) from the State. I am not saying it is valid nor am I speaking for libertarians.
billfalberg: "You still haven't described a society without force."
There is no such thing. Some of the worst atrocities have been brought forth by those trying to create a nirvana or utopia on earth. Libertarians are aware the world is a dirty place, and want to retain the right to self-defense. The issue of 'force' is an offense / defense one in the non-aggression principle.
And the issue of 'power' is not automatically born of force or coercion, as there are plenty of highly influential people who do not wield that 'power' aggressively.
Posted by ralph schindler on 01/29/13 09:10 PM
The new currency should be of the best white paper with gold and black print on it. It should have PURE precious metal POWDERS in it, such as platinum, palladium, gold, silver, nickel & copper. The amount of metal powder should be in grams and ounces with amounts indicated on the notes similar to the OLD silver and gold notes of yesterday.
Our old VALUES must be renewed and this should be a new beginning. WORK comes from stored energy that produces various VALUES that produces various individual and community WEALTH.
Also to be included on these promise to pay paper metal notes we should have the RH and LH commandments printed on same. Mr. Putin has proposed this money.
Posted by billfalberg on 01/29/13 02:27 PM
"The apparent problem with our dialogue, generally, Bill, is that you seem to be a "low information" sort of feedbacker."
The apparent problem with your responses is that they're unresponsive. You cherry-pick a controversial subject, take the side that supports your sophist argument, and ignore the substance of my comment. If you can't defend libertarianism, perhaps you could post a link to someone that can.
My immediate problem is a total lack of clarity in regards to the role of corporations in a free-market economy and/or a democratic political systems. I asked several other questions to which you had no answer and I'll attribute that to your lack of information.
You still haven't described a society without force.
I didn't say Tibet was libertarian. They had no (or little) power. But you knew that, right?
Would you prefer that I attach a flock of links in support of my statements and write long, tedious essays full of other things you also already know? I'm trying to learn about your mission. Do you want to teach it? If so, how can you teach without answering the students' questions?
Reply from The Daily Bell
You ask us to defend libertarianism. Our main mission is to point out dominant social themes of the power elite. We recommend you visit Click to view link for a thorough documentation of free-market thinking. Unfortunately, it won't happen overnight.