News & Analysis
Zionism as an Elite Promotion or Fashion Statement?
Hate Crimes At Queens Libraries and Jewish Temple ... Survey Finds Anti-Semitic Attitudes Rising ... Swastikas were found painted on the facades of the Jackson Heights and East Elmhurst branches of the Queens Library and on the door of Congregation Tifereth Israel on Thursday. The Anti-Defamation League today condemned the anti-Semitic graffiti. The ADL says there were 133 anti-Jewish incidents reported across New York City in 2010. A nationwide ADL survey released just yesterday found that anti-Semitic attitudes have risen in America. The ADL survey found that 15 percent of Americans – nearly 35 million adults – hold deeply anti-Semitic views. That's up three percent from 2009. – MyFoxNY
Dominant Social Theme: These people simply need to go to Israel where they really belong. But then they need to leave Israel because they are oppressing and killing Palestinians.
Free-Market Analysis: With anti-Semitism apparently rising in America, (see article above) the question needs to be asked: What groups and people are consciously or unconsciously contributing to the rise of Jewish prejudice in America?
The answer is that certain elements of the 'Net intelligentsia now apparently think it's fashionable to "call out" Jews. The putative motive is to courageously name names, to call the cancer what it is: The Zionist Jew. But the larger mass of people does not unfortunately make a distinction between a Zionist and any other kind of "Jew."
Secondly, defining the one-world problem as a problem of "Zionist Jewry" (organized Jewry) gets the emphasis wrong in our view. The problem is a conflation of public and private interests called mercantilism and an actuating mechanism called Money Power (which begins with central banking).
Eliminate every Jew without paying attention to this larger mechanism and nothing will change. The culprits would simply be replaced by new ones. It's a system that needs changing, not the "Jews."
We've run a series of articles on this issue because it is an important one. When the intelligentsia of a nation or culture gets infected by this sort of "courage" then it seems civil society suffers and violence erupts much more easily.
Populist demagogues have their say and the result is impoverishment on many levels. Racism and prejudice hurts everybody and ruins what's left of social comity. Here at the Daily Bell, we have some elves with Jewish backgrounds, as we've written many times. The evolving situation concerns us.
Of course, there is no doubt that 20th century civil/social paradigms are fracturing around the world. Depression and war threaten internationally. Modern problems are being generated, in our estimation, by what we call directed history.
And surely there is in fact a small group of impossibly wealthy people, an Anglosphere power elite as we call them, that seems to be in the process now of creating maximum chaos in order to introduce their long-held goal, which is one-world government. Other people have other names for this group.
One name is "Zionist Jew." This nomenclature is becoming increasingly popular (once again?) in the West and especially in America. But are people using the phrase "Zionist" to better define the problem or do the words "Zionist Jew" only aggravate the problem by implying that Jews are an aggregate evil?
We tend to think the latter. There are thousands of websites now that denounce Zionist Jews and catalogue their misdeeds. But from there, it is very easy simply to blame Jews generally for what has gone wrong in the world and even to try to identify them by, say, noses and earlobes.
And yet, here is a proposition: Not all Jews are to blame for the state of the world today. Even Zionist Jews – those who generally believe in the state of Israel – are surely not entirely to blame for the way the world works. Better in our view to use a term like Mafia or "Jewish Cartel" to describe those who run the central banks that fund the one-world conspiracy.
The great Jewish banking families – seemingly behind the impetus toward one world government – are certainly not alone in their quest. They are accompanied and supported by enablers and associates in the corporate, military and political community, including, apparently, such institutions as the Vatican.
Of course, (comes the answer) the Vatican has been intimidated by Money Power. And when it is pointed out that others are involved in the Conspiracy who are Catholic or Protestant, etc., often the answer is that they are "crypto-Jews."
But, hey, how about this? The top leaders of the power elite may not be religious at all, just manipulative. Is that possible? Why is it so easily assumed that sociopaths are religious?
One of the progenitors of the modern, erupting Zionism meme is a courageous fellow by the name of Jack Bernstein, dead now and supposedly murdered by the Mossad. His work seems increasingly influential among those who employ the term Zionist Jew to describe those responsible for the horrid and horrible state of the modern world.
Bernstein wrote the following: "Judaism is a religion; but Zionism is a political movement started mainly by East European (Ashkenazi) Jews who for centuries have been the main force behind communism/socialism. The ultimate goal of the Zionists is one ONE-WORLD GOVERMENT UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE ZIONISTS AND THE ZIONIST-ORIENTED JEWISH INTERNATIONAL BANKERS."
Notice Bernstein asserts this. It is HIS vocabulary (though no doubt with historical precedent). It is also bound to be CONFUSING to many. Zionism is defined nominally in the West as a movement to set up a Jewish state (a state which should be secular, by the way). But Bernstein's definition is that Zionism is actually a synonym for those who believe in the genocidal concept of one-world government!
Now Bernstein, no matter his courage, has become a fashion. But it is a fashion that is bound to be confusing to the mass of people who are easily influenced by such terms. People hear the term "Zionism" and don't make the distinction that the fashionable 'Net intelligentsia is making. They just think "Jew."
One does not refer to people in the Italian mafia by their religious background; and what is the difference between the Italian mafia and the Jewish money mafia? We would argue it is mostly one of scope and breadth. They both work the same way, hiring insiders that are culturally similar in order to guarantee cohesion and secrecy and to ensure their crimes are hidden.
The Italian mafia is or was Catholic, but one does not hear the Italian Mafioso being referred to as "Black Catholic." Yet, that might be an analogous situation, as there is surely historical evidence for a Jesuitical Black Church, just as there is evidence for a Jewish-based one-world conspiracy.
No, from our point of view those who use the term "Zionist Jew" to define this broadly based one-world conspiracy are being honest and courageous by their own lights but needlessly divisive. The use of the word Zionism is a dividing and polarizing term and – here's the kicker – it would seem from what we know that this is exactly what the Anglosphere power elite wants!
The use of the term "Zionist Jew" to describe those who pursue the one-world conspiracy is surely confusing to those who don't fully follow the argumentation. It places Jews – all Jews seemingly (for those who don't understand) – into the position of being the "other." Jews are polarized and so is everyone else. Violence is enhanced; chaos is fomented. Isn't this desirable? Isn't this their MO?
So ... from our point of view, the use of Zionism to describe one-world Money Power is actually a kind of elite dominant social theme. The elite's WANT the term floated. Heck, they made it up. They promote Zionism in numerous ways.
Those who use the term inimically are the elite's best friends: They're frightening the Jewish masses as they ought to be frightened. Then more of them will move to Israel in time to be fodder for the Big War.
In fact, there is an entire history on the Internet now documenting this fear-based campaign, which is at least 100 years old. Few groups of people in our view have likely been MORE manipulated by their leaders than average Jews.
The use of the word Zionism, in our opinion, basically tars all Jews, even if it is not intended that way. It increases suspicion and hate. It is also inaccurate because the urgent problem the world faces today is the one-world conspiracy and that is a MERCANTLIST conspiracy.
This is the OTHER basic reason that using the word Zionism is not so great. The fashionable anti-Zionist intelligentsia has spent about a billion man-years in aggregate researching the Illuminati and Jewish history and the Khazars, etc.
But maybe, just maybe, none of this much MATTERS. None of it is worth a damn without Money Power to actuate whatever conspiracy exists. And thus we regularly try to point out that it is the MECHANISM that must be uprooted.
We make the following modest proposition, therefore, to the fashionably courageous 'Net intelligentsia. Please define the problem properly!
The one-world conspiracy is succeeding to the degree that it is because it has found a way to marry Money Power to an ever-expanding one-world government. It intends to run the world like a private fiefdom in which a handful of people will be kings while everyone else will be either dead or zombified slaves.
Just as importantly, we speculate there is likely NO operative religious element at the core of the one-world conspiracy, not even "Satanism" or "Illuminism." People who are worth tens of trillions of dollars and are directing history are not likely to be exceptionally religious in our view. They are more likely to USE various belief systems and to exploit them to achieve their goals. They are more likely to believe they ARE gods than to worship one.
Putative belief structures can be useful, though. They can be used, for instance, in an intimidating way. Illuminati symbolism is increasingly used in this way, in our estimation. See, there is a REASON for Lady Gaga and the Supreme Court in Israel. A certain kind of "messaging" is taking place – and it's aimed at us!
No, as with the Italian mafia, an inter-generational conspiracy of this sort does NOT need a spiritual glue, certainly not a religious one. Religiosity is much more apt to be a TOOL for these individuals. They are motivated by fear (that their crimes will be discovered) and greed (the arrogance to believe that the Earth belongs to them).
At the top of this conspiracy is a sociopathic element. Why on earth do the fashionable analyzers of this conspiracy believe that sociopaths identify themselves as anything other than "owners"? It's a mafia. It uses Zionism and religious history as a promotion ... as a way of introducing more chaos and bloodshed into the world. We would argue Israel was set up as a theocracy for this purpose.
The Money Power Conspiracy is run by a money mafia. To describe this mafia as consisting of "Zionist Jews" gives the impression it is mainly a religious problem generated by certain people. But get rid of every single Jew and Zionist (of any kind) and leave the system itself intact and the same problems would reoccur.
So call it what it is: A money mafia, a Jewish cartel, largely. But don't make the argument that the problem is ideological. There are plenty of bad ideologies in the world and one-world government is likely NOT being driven by an ideology. There are people involved in it who are neither Jewish nor Zionist.
Conclusion: The system is one of Money Power. Without money power the ideology wouldn't even have a chance. Even Bernstein would be distressed to see that his warning was being used to tar an entire people, whether intentionally or not. It is the SYSTEM that is a horribly evil and murderous one. "By the Eternal, I will rout you out!"
"Gentlemen! I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States. ... You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, (bringing his fist down on the table) I will rout you out!" (From the original minutes of the Philadelphia committee of citizens sent to meet with President Jackson, February 1834)
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Posted by EconomicsMonkey on 11/12/11 01:18 PM
I'm not sure I agree with the premise "With anti-Semitism apparently rising in America." I doubt it's specific to semitism. In times of economic crisis, there appears to be an overall increase in bigotry towards minorities. These 133 incidents pale in comparison to the increased anti-hispanic sentiment that's propped up. Minorities are usually the convenient scape goat in these instances.
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Posted by Thor on 11/11/11 08:41 AM
I could as well incline you to read the gulag archipelago. I am talking this language and yet i think i would be as well developed even if i did not. Thus you are wrong my friend. Russians had it better under the tzar than under the red tzar.
And well i will compare people today with those from 100 years ago. The main difference is not that how much % can read, but how big a % would survive if centralised government and paper money gone. Because both of these constitutes are evil and wicked and they will not last very long more.
What do most people use their reading skills today for. Reading news reels and the words on computers. And hardly more than 5% use it for anything else. News reels except such small ones as DB are all hell bent on getting the entire world into an inferno.
If you think that we are more civilized now than for 100 years ago, you don't understand the rules of nature.
Reply from The Daily Bell
"If you think that we are more civilized now than for 100 years ago, you don't understand the rules of nature."
This we agree with.
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Posted by TimurTheLame on 11/10/11 02:38 PM
@ Thor
I thought that maybe you had imbibed prior to your last post so I erased a rather long one of mine because I did not want to insult you. ( I hated to do this because much of my thought went into it)
But it seems that you write and think on a certain level so I shall take a couple of moments to address your last post.
I can't be clinical because you are incongruent, going from pre- 1917 Russia to Stalin in one fell swoop.
Pre Soviet Russia was a backward nation which constituted of 95% illiterate and pious peasantry. They loved the lord and the land and saw the Tsar as the Lord's spawn.
Russian culture is deep but what you refer to as 'civilization' were actually baubles that the super decadent and corrupt aristocracy practiced and it was mostly borrowed from France. Some of my ancestors were in the Tsarist cavalry and told us that French was mostly spoken in the officer's club.
With me so far?
Stalin was by any definition a brilliant man.
Do yourself a favour and read Sebag Montefiore's " In the Court of the Red Czar".
Until you do, any further commentary between us will be useless.
Added bonus: you may well enjoy reading it.
Regards-
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Posted by Thor on 11/10/11 07:30 AM
Ill tell so you can comphrehend. A civilization like Russia, i mean the kind of civilization in Russia pre 1917. That it is Christian, that it is European Slav and amongst the most highly developed in the world. I don't know why you disagree but there you have it. Ill summarize it in shorter style. So much deceit exists today and if one ignores the details about stalin and only looks at the facts that are definitely not deceit then its a very impossible picture of him that mainstream historians try to show. And from then on it is just to conclude what historical category he fits in considering the 100% true facts that exist about stalin. No one has existed compared to mainstream stalin and what makes him different is only the minor details. Which are possibly faked. Compared to the big facts that cannot be faked.
Perhaps stalin was paranoid, but paranoid's have sense albeit on a lower scale. His supposed mass murders are highly unlikely to have happened because of this minor detail. Considering what Stalin supposedly was, a slav, dictator and born in a Christian familiy. Makes it just more unlikely that he would do it for any reason what so ever.
And this considering together with the lot of deceit and many much more historically sense full explanations that are not mainstream puts the balance out of favor with the mainstream explanation. Stalin was not mad, nor was he mentally sick, and neither was he responsible for the horrors that happened in Russia. Even if he was mad it is not a good enough reason, to belief he did it. And for you it might be hard to conclude because everyone in your vicinity probably behave completely senseless as many do in European mainland. For this senselessness you might just not understand the reason i explain.
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/10/11 07:27 AM
Interesting article. Not news, really, for me. Some edits ~ the young men in Yemen most likely do not know some of this:
"They will do this via a Sura. Six highly esteemed members of society will choose the nation's leader and he will be responsible for the new Muslim state."
That's a "shura" ~ a "sura" is a chapter of the Qur'an.
"Anybody can come there of any religion to live and that person will not be oppressed in any way nor pressured to change his or her religion."
True.
"Jews especially are highly esteemed in the Koran and set above Christians and even other Muslims."
Not true. The Qur'an was sent down to Jews, Christians, and anyone else with faith in God, to COMPLETE their religions, all of which looked (and today look) toward another Revelation that will complete God's Favor on them ~ but although each religion "requires" that, it's an option for each person to accept it or not when it comes. Those who choose to live with the religion they already have, even though it's not complete, are regarded on equal terms with those who accept the new Revelation.
"The state in many ways basically leaves you alone, though Sharia law is to be administered by Islamic Courts appointed by the leader of the nation."
Parties to a dispute may choose anyone they wish to arbitrate or adjudicate their differences, there is no requirement that they go to someone appointed to hear their case. But the "leader" of the community ~ the local community ~ is required to provide a judge when the parties ask him to appoint one for their dispute.
"So the standard of proof to apply the more significant parts of Sharia law come with an immensely high standard."
"Criminal penalties" are not a significant part of muslim law, they are to be avoided if at all possible. And the civil penalties for accusations that cannot be proved are quite severe ~ they all include a permanent prohibition of giving testimony.
"They want a war between East and West, at least a cold war if not a hot one."
It's much deeper than that. It goes back thousands of years, and it's not "East-West" (China is "East" ~ the "Middle East" is "West"), it's global dominion of darkness against light, subjugation against liberty. That may sound trite and simplistic, but it IS the underlying reality.
"There is increasingly little doubt in my mind that for at least the past 100-200 years the world has experienced the fullness of directed history."
For the last 6,000 years, actually. At least.
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Posted by TimurTheLame on 11/09/11 04:24 PM
@ Thor
Disagree 2.0. I get a general idea of what you are trying to disgorge but you fly around continents too quickly for me to follow.
"Civilization like Russia". What in the world are you talking about?
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Posted by Thor on 11/09/11 02:25 PM
In a Civilization like Russia, were you have certain values. And a high level of civilization. You will never get such results as those seen in Russia in the 1920-30. No matter what happened in the years earlier if it only consisted of an matter of conflict between disagreeing russians. You would without a problem been able to do what for instances happened for the muslims. They just split and went to their own. When they became shia and sunni.
I think it is not many of you continental Europeans that today, given the state of your nation, that would understand the nature of faith and culture and ethnicity. You simply have no example of a proper working society, which deludes your political sight. These three things are always inseparable, given the high degree of civilization. Because they each need each other to work inside the country and have the country run as it does. And they strengthen each other also the more perfect each is.
That someone (whom is part of all three) really goes and suddenly says now one of them (faith) doesn't do anymore and we need another, will never happened. And the supposed thing that atheism exists is a lie, because well their new faith was communism.
First they kill one third of the population, second they make of the remainder a third criminals because they still dare proclaim them self christians. And there is about nothing in the world that ever will convince me that this happened for the good of Russia. And the sort of role Stalin had makes it impossible that he had responsibility for it. Because such is not the nature of any absolute dictatorships. Thinking straight it would only be a group of oligarchs that would make such a thing possible (and example is Venic that just gave no care about their virtues and only wanted merchant goods, leaving the hospitallers to die).
Stalin had power indeed and yet his intended role was a puppet dictator that received power only because the politburo was of non russian ethnicity, that he could reveal if they did not behave as he said and yet because he was a dictator with the divine right of communism it was neither easy for him to take full control of what they did, not to mention the "aristocrats" or the elite social class which almost fully was jewish.
But yet he almost succeeded but then they assassinated him in 1953. Note his power increased dramatically when the war ended and also note that he suspected the politburo to remove him and kill him when the war began.
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/09/11 01:52 PM
Well, so much for that attempt.
The software adds your website url to the beginning of the link, so there are two. I think that you need to put the "http" with the colon and two forward slashes before the url to prevent the software from adding it, plus your site address, to the url you type in. I'll try it for "Guide To Events: Processing the Information Overload":
Click to view link
Reply from The Daily Bell
Here:
www. muslimamerica. net /mp /guide. htm
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/09/11 01:38 PM
"OK. Thanks much for information, Sir, and for taking the time, once more. Strange about that link ... Try this if you wish ... "
The link repeats "Click to view link" so it reads "Click to view link" and the server can't find a folder named "Click to view link" ~ when I remove one, it finds the correct page.
Reply from The Daily Bell
Thanks. At least you got there ...
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/09/11 12:00 PM
"Finally, we think we understand the cause of your concern. It has to do with the idea that Islam is something other than a religion of peace."
No, what other people believe or don't believe about Islam or anything else is no concern of mine.
"We are not implying that Islam, generally, is other than merciful. We think its spirituality is endlessly misrepresented as something else in the West for purposes of power politics. We have always defended Islam on these pages."
I know that. But it's not about "power politics," it's about preventing "making Islam known" to people. Not "conversions," but just making it known. It's critically important for the people who HAVE ALWAYS HAD power over the rest of humanity that "making Islam known" be prevented.
"But almost ALL religions have some sort of exclusivity. We could have said the same thing of Catholics (and should have) to make our point. Islam offers one the benefits of a divine afterlife if one accepts the True Word. So does Christianity. Accept the Word and you are 'Chosen.' "
That's not the message of Islam OR Christianity. It's not even the word of Judaism ~ you can embrace Judaism and "become Jewish," but unless you are a descendant of Jacob, you will not be one of "The Chosen People." Your grandchildren might be, if one of your children marries a descendant of Jacob, or if you marry a Jewish woman who is a descendant of Jacob, then your children will be "of the Chosen People," although regarded the same way the Samaritans are regarded ~ as "not of the pure blood of Jacob." "Reform" and "Conservative" Judaism teach a different view, but the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox are very attentive to lineage to determine who has "real" authority in the religion and who is "probably" not a "real Jew."
"One can surely argue over who is Chosen (and Muslims seem to make the point that because their scripture came last, they have the final word.) But evidently and obviously there is a choosing. With the Jews as well. They are told they are The Eternal One's chosen people."
They ARE The Eternal's "Chosen People." It's a distinction given to Abraham for Isaac. The "choosing" you're talking about is the choosing that individuals do. The Chosen People are The Chosen People because God chose them, not because they chose that.
"That's a longer version of part of the point we were presenting."
Right ~ the point you were presenting was that muslim children are told that they are now "The Chosen People." They are not told that, although some Arab muslims might be told that in error, and the muslims are not, and will never be, "The Chosen People."
The Children of Israel were Chosen to be the first to be given the Kingdom of God. Those among them who denied Jesus abandoned that Kingdom, which continued among the faithful of Jesus, who said to them "The Kingdom is among you." That Kingdom is still among those who are faithful to Jesus, but extremely few of today's Christians are actually living in it ~ they're living in the "gentile kingdoms" ~ the nations of mankind ~ to which Jesus and the Apostles sent Disciples, and the Kingdom of God that was Israel disappeared from "this world." Six centuries later, God established His Kingdom among the Arabs. That did not make the Arabs "The Chosen People," it is what the Children of Israel knew would happen. A thousand years later, that Kingdom also disappeared from "this world," but persists among the muslims as it has persisted among the Christians ~ "among you," but not "of this world" of the nations of mankind. The Children of Israel knew that would happen, as well. Now, in America, God is establishing His Kingdom again, among the children of Ham and Japheth, Noah's other sons. It's the same Kingdom that He established among the descendants of Shem ~ the Hebrews and the Arabs ~ each in their turn. And the Children of Israel have known all along that it would happen here ~ because they read their Scripture in Hebrew, not in some English mistranslation. And we, the children of Japheth, are not "The Chosen People," and will never be "The Chosen People" who were Chosen by God to be the first to establish the Kingdom of God three thousand years ago.
All three of those religions of Abraham welcome those who choose to join their communities. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are mentioned in the Bible as "the tents of Shem" ~ see Genesis 9:27 for that (even though it's deceptively mistranslated in English Bibles).
"Finally, thank you for taking the time to write to us. These pages are improved by what you have presented. We are conscious of that fact even though we seem to disagree on some (semantical?) points regarding 'choosing.' "
I don't think we "disagree," we just aren't on the same page about Who did what choosing and who has been doing what other choosing. From my point of view, I chose Islam ~ but from another point of view, God chose Islam for me. Or maybe He chose me for Islam. Or both. Or all three. That does not make me one of The Chosen People, I'm pretty sure that I haven't a drop of Semitic, Hebrew, Jacobite, or Jewish blood ~ not even Samaritan or Rastafarian ~ in my veins. With English, German, Scottish, Irish, French, and Wind River Shoshoni ancestry, I'm entirely a descendant of Japheth, making Islam "known" while Jews, Christians and muslims, living in the tents of Shem in America, establish ~ for the third time ~ the Kingdom of God, to which no one needs to pay any attention at all if they're not interested.
America: religious liberty, freedom of and from religion, but run by the enemies of humanity. I think people are getting ready to do something about that. I know God is.
Reply from The Daily Bell
OK. Thanks much for information, Sir, and for taking the time, once more. Strange about that link ...
Try this if you wish ...
Click to view link
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/09/11 11:59 AM
"And they will not cease fighting you until they turn you from your religion, if they can. And whoever of you turns from his religion, then he dies while a Denier ~ these it is whose works go for nothing in this world and the hereafter. And they are the companions of the Fire: therein they abide.
Note that the last three words are in the present tense ~ they are in the Fire, which will remain true as long as they are Deniers.
-----
"Sir, we are not trying to have a fight with you over 'scripture.' But the words say what they say."
Exactly my point ~ the words say exactly what they say, and they don't say what you've been reading in those other "translations." They're Arabic words, and very precise and clear. The Arabic language is so mathematically precise that it serves as the core of a computer algorithm that translates sentences from other languages into third languages with no loss of meaning. And that quotation "It's you and your religion against them and theirs" is simply not in the Qur'an at all ~ it's a complete falsification made up out of whole cloth.
"Seems to us, if you are in the Fire because you deny, you are not 'chosen.' "
In actuality, what the Qur'an says is that those who ARE "Chosen" to know the truth are in the Fire BECAUSE they cover it up and Deny it. Those are the Deniers.
"Now our understanding is that once you have chosen, you've chosen, else why does the Merciful One judge you at endtimes? Your perspective seems to be you can "unchoose" even while suffering from Hell Fire."
You cannot "choose" to not be your mother's daughter. According to the Bible, Jacob chose to buy Esau's birthright, and chose to deceive Isaac into giving him Esau's blessing. The children of Israel, after escaping from Egypt, were offered that birthright ~ to be "The Chosen People" ~ and unanimously chose to accept it, to be a nation that would exist forever, binding themselves and their descendants to that Covenant. That's what happened from YOUR perspective of "once you have chosen." But they were Chosen by God ~ that's what makes them "The Chosen People." God has not "unchosen" them, He promised them that He wouldn't. They were, are, and will always be "The Chosen People" just as you will always be your mother's child.
They chose to accept that distinction, and promised to keep that Covenant. Some of them didn't ~ instead, they lied about it to their people and to everyone else. Others, besides them, also came to know the truth, and some of them lied about it and covered it up. Their successors are still doing it. They're the Deniers, which ignorant muslims call "disbelievers," which loses the entire meaning of the word ~ which, like other Arabic words, has an exact and specific clearly understandable meaning. That meaning is "Deniers," not "unbelievers" or "disbelievers." As you say, "the words say what they say." They don't say something else, not in Arabic.
So all those people that you think are meant by "unbelievers" or "disbelievers" who will be "punished" for their failure to "believe," are NOT meant by those passages of the Qur'an that speak about the Deniers ~ who will suffer as a result of denying what they know is true. It's an entirely different thing from not knowing or not being convinced ~ it's lying. When I tell you "I don't believe that," it's not a lie. Were I tell you that Jesus was not the Messiah, when I know without any doubt that he was, that would be a lie. There's a difference.
"You know, a couple of dozen young men in a Yemeni prison who read scripture all day long for all their miserable, unjustly incarcerated years would likely argue with you about that. They tried to get at least one elf of their acquaintance to convert regularly so he would not suffer the agonies of Hell Fire."
Anyone in the Fire can choose to escape it. The people in the Fire have chosen it.
"So ... at least one of our elves heard elements of the Koran daily, and the Hadith as well (the strong ones). And it was all explained in detail over days and weeks. And your interpretation, Sir, is not theirs.
See ... Click to view link
I get a blank page at that link. But it doesn't matter, there would be no argument with what I actually said, which is not what you understood from it.
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/09/11 08:11 AM
"It's you and your religion against them and theirs. They won't stop fighting until they make you a "renegade from your religion" and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire. 2:217"
And they will not cease fighting you until they turn you from your religion, if they can. And whoever of you turns from his religion, then he dies while a Denier ~ these it is whose works go for nothing in this world and the hereafter. And they are the companions of the Fire: therein they abide.
Note that the last three words are in the present tense ~ they are in the Fire, which will remain true as long as they are Deniers.
There is no other suggestion of futurity in the Arabic phrase. The Arabic of that passage does not remotely support the "translation" you offer. There is nothing that could be translated as "It's you and your religion against them and theirs;" the word "deen" that's translated as "religion" is more accurately translated as "faithful judgment;" there is no word translatable as "disbelief" in the Arabic language; and there is no "forever" in the Arabic of that passage.
The "Deniers" are an explicit, identifiable people ~ they are those who KNOW the truth and lie about it, cover it up, falsify it, and either deny it exists or claim that no one else knows it but them. The Arabic word "kafara" in all of its permutations means "to cover up" something ~ like putting a lid on a garbage can. In order to cover up something, you have to know it exists and where it is. The Deniers knowingly cover up the truth that is in the Qur'an. "Not knowing" is not "disbelief;" not being convinced is not denial. The translators who render "kafirun" as "disbeliever" rather than "Denier" do not understand the Arabic word.
You should also note that the passage taken out of context from Q2:217 merely states what "they" (meaning the Deniers who were at that time making war against the muslims) will continue to do, and what the results of certain actions will be.
"Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257"
Again part of the verse. The Arabic says "God is the Friend of those who keep faith ~ He brings them out of darkness into light. And those who Deny, their friends are the devils who take them out of light into darkness. They are the companions of the Fire; therein they abide."
"Those who swallow usury ... are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:275
You are what you eat, and when you eat fire, you own it. But the translation is false: the Arabic says "Those who swallow usury cannot arise except as he arises whom the devil prostrates by touch." After explaining why, the verse ends with "These are the companions of the Fire: therein they abide."
"Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. 3:4"
Those who Deny the Signs of God have a hard affliction.
"Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10"
Those who Deny cannot by their wealth or their children gain anything from God. And they fuel the Fire.
"Those who disbelieve shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell. 3:12"
Say to those who Deny "You will be overcome and driven to hell." And evil is the resting-place.
"Guard us from the punishment of Fire." 3:16
The Arabic says "Those who say: Our Lord, we keep faith, so forgive our wrongs and save us from the affliction of the Fire."
"Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their nonbelief. 3:19"
Another falsification out of context: "... And those who were given The Book differed only after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves. And whoever Denies the Signs of God ~ God is quick at reckoning."
"And here, from Click to view link ... "But God keeps His Promises, and the tyrants and pretenders are meeting a gruesome end ... The strangers are promised something else ... No other people were ever Promised 'bliss.'"
What would you like? God keeps His Promises. The tyrants and pretenders are meeting a gruesome end ~ you can watch it on television.
There is no Scripture anywhere that promises anyone "bliss," other than in that one prophecy on our "Welcome, Stranger!" page at
Click to view link
(Your link fails, it's mis-spelled).
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"Seems like a "choosing" to us."
Seems like you need some better sources of information. You might be one of those "strangers" and not know it.
Shaykh al-Hajj Dawud Ahmad al-Amriki, M.S.J.D.
Muslim America
Reply from The Daily Bell
And they will not cease fighting you until they turn you from your religion, if they can. And whoever of you turns from his religion, then he dies while a Denier ~ these it is whose works go for nothing in this world and the hereafter. And they are the companions of the Fire: therein they abide.
Note that the last three words are in the present tense ~ they are in the Fire, which will remain true as long as they are Deniers.
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Sir, we are not trying to have a fight with you over "scripture." But the words say what they say. Seems to us, if you are in the Fire because you deny, you are not "chosen."
Now our understanding is that once you have chosen, you've chosen, else why does the Merciful One judge you at endtimes? Your perspective seems to be you can "unchoose" even while suffering from Hell Fire.
You know, a couple of dozen young men in a Yemeni prison who read scripture all day long for all their miserable, unjustly incarcerated years would likely argue with you about that. They tried to get at least one elf of their acquaintance to convert regularly so he would not suffer the agonies of Hell Fire.
So ... at least one of our elves heard elements of the Koran daily, and the Hadith as well (the strong ones). And it was all explained in detail over days and weeks. And your interpretation, Sir, is not theirs.
See ...
Click to view link
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Finally, we think we understand the cause of your concern. It has to do with the idea that Islam is something other than a religion of peace. We are not implying that Islam, generally, is other than merciful. We think its spirituality is endlessly misrepresented as something else in the West for purposes of power politics. We have always defended Islam on these pages.
But almost ALL religions have some sort of exclusivity. We could have said the same thing of Catholics (and should have) to make our point. Islam offers one the benefits of a divine afterlife if one accepts the True Word. So does Christianity. Accept the Word and you are "Chosen."
One can surely argue over who is Chosen (and Muslims seem to make the point that because their scripture came last, they have the final word.) But evidently and obviously there is a choosing. With the Jews as well. They are told they are The Eternal One's chosen people.
That's a longer version of part of the point we were presenting.
Finally, thank you for taking the time to write to us. These pages are improved by what you have presented. We are conscious of that fact even though we seem to disagree on some (semantical?) points regarding "choosing."
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/09/11 05:04 AM
Okay, no HTML tags, no FUDcode, no BBS code. How do we get italics and bold?
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/09/11 04:55 AM
[i]Yes, but Muslim boys get told the same thing.[/i]
Some might, in error. Generally, the do not.
[i]Sorry, we were not being literal but general.[/i]
As a general statement, it is incorrect.
[i]To be more specific, Sunni Islam is very clear that if you are NOT a Muslim, you will suffer Hellfire.[/i]
That's not true.
[i]There are billions in their graves waiting even now for judgement day.[/i]
That's not true either. These may be popular beliefs among those who do not know their religion, but they are not true.
[i]That's "chosen."[/i]
That's entirely incorrect. "Chosen" as used in Scripture and the Qur'an, referring to the Children of Israel, is something entirely different.
A thousand years ago, the muslims of that time had forgotten a great deal, and imperialist leaders had falsified much of what the people believed. Regarding "Chosen," there was a notion propagated by the imperialist leaders that the muslims "replaced" Israel as "Chosen." This is false ~ we did not and do not "replace" Judaism or Christianity. As prophesied throughout the Old Testament, the Qur'an replaces the Torah [i]for the Children of Israel[/i], restoring Israel to God's Covenant, and is the eternally unchanging Covenant promised to all of humanity who choose it.
Moses called the Children of Israel to a Covenant, the first part of which was a ministry only of Israel, to prepare themselves for a second ministry when their "Mashiach" ("Messiah") came to them. In the time of Solomon, some of Levi and Judah abandoned that Covenant, leading the Children to expect a false "Mashiach" who would give them perpetual dominion over mankind, a conquering messiah. When the Messiah (Jesus) came, he called them to that second ministry, reaching out to the nations of mankind announcing a new Covenant that would be offered to all humanity, not just a "Kingdom of God" for the Children of Israel. They were to join that universal Covenant, a global administration securing to every nation the liberty to administer its own affairs as it chose to do (i.e., by its own form of democratic self-rule), forever after.
When Jesus came, he was not the false messiah that the pharisees and scribes had led the Children to expect, and those who followed the pharisees and scribes are still waiting for that false messiah. So are most Christians, expecting Jesus to return as that conquering messiah. From Jesus onward, the faithful of Israel (who followed Jesus), and those who join them, have been carrying out that outreach ministry that was given to the Children of Israel. They are still waiting to fulfill it, and usher in the Millennial Kingdom, a "Thousand-year Reign of Christ" to establish that new Covenant throughout the nations of mankind for those who choose it. After those thousand years are history, the enemies of humanity ~ those that Judah and Levi joined for a promise of perpetual dominion over mankind ~ get a "last chance" to prove mankind "not fit" for the role of dominion over the creation; and when they fail to prove that, the faithful of Moses and Jesus, and those who join them, establish and preserve and protect universal liberty forever, putting an end to the forceful, coercive dominion of any one family of humanity over any other family of humanity.
It is this eternal Covenant for which the Children of Israel were chosen, as God promised to Abraham that He would do among the descendants of Isaac. The family of Jacob was chosen from among the descendants of Isaac to receive ~ and fail to keep ~ that Covenant, and the family of Jacob's elder twin brother Esau (the true heir of the Promise made to Abraham regarding Isaac) was not called "Chosen."
The muslims were not chosen for that Covenant, the record of which is inside the Ark of the Covenant according to the original Torah (which was the Law of that Covenant, placed in the side of the Ark of the Covenant). Our only connection with that Covenant is to honor it, preserve it, and defend the right of those who claim to live by it to live their lives according to it. The Children of Israel [b]will[/b] have what God Promised exclusively to them ~ all of it.
Reply from The Daily Bell
It's you and your religion against them and theirs. They won't stop fighting until they make you a "renegade from your religion" and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire. 2:217
Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257
"Those who swallow usury ... are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:275
Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. 3:4
Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10
Those who disbelieve shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell. 3:12
"Guard us from the punishment of Fire." 3:16
Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their nonbelief. 3:19
And here, from Click to view link ... "But God keeps His Promises, and the tyrants and pretenders are meeting a gruesome end ... The strangers are promised something else ... No other people were ever Promised 'bliss.'"
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Seems like a "choosing" to us.
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/08/11 11:32 PM
[][b](is it true that jewish boys still get told by their Rabbis, that they are the chosen ones? This can have a big impact on a boy's mind).[/b]
Reply from The Daily Bell: Yes, but Muslim boys get told the same thing.[/i]
This is not so. Muslims know that the Children of Israel were, are, and will always be "The Chosen People," and share that distinction with no one else. In the Qur'an, God repeatedly says "... and we chose you ... ", speaking directly and only to the Children of Israel. We know why they were chosen, how they came to be chosen, what they were chosen for, their history as the chosen people, the role they were given to play in the history of humanity, the role some of them chose to play, and the roles they did and forever will play.
We know their history from the time of Abraham and Isaac, through the time of Moses, Aaron and Joshua and their migration from Egypt across the River Jordan into what is now called Samaria, their movement to what is now called Judea, through the time of Saul and David and Solomon and their dominion over the entire
[a href=Click to view link]Promised Land[/a],
their history after Solomon in Abyssinia and Ethiopia and Axum, their colonies as far away as China, the formulation by Levi and Judah of the Tradition of the pharisees and scribes, their "Silver Age" in Babylon called the Captivity, the Second Temple period, the response of various parties among them in Jerusalem, Africa, Arabia, and elsewhere to the Call of Jesus, the flight of the Sanhedrin from Jerusalem before 70 A.D. after Jesus had come and gone, their "Golden Age" in muslim Spain, the migration through Europe to what became known as The Pale, their financing of the early expeditions of Ferdinand and Ysabella to "the New World" and their international trade triangle between Europe, Brazil, and the West Indies, their emergence into the public life of Europe and America, their return to Israel from eastern and western Europe ... and more.
There is very little about the Children of Israel that muslims do not know: The Chosen People have always been noble and notable, sometimes notorious, and as prominent and visible as they have wanted to be, or as invisible or unremarkable as they needed to appear to be.
But "the muslims" are not "The Chosen People" and we do not tell our children otherwise, unless those children are of the family of Jacob and thus some of the chosen people who have embraced Islam ~ being of the Children of Israel is a distinction that cannot be lost, and accepting Islam is conclusive evidence that a child of Jacob is of The Chosen People.
We know who the enemies of humanity are, and although some of the Children of Israel have joined them, they are not "the Jews."
Reply from The Daily Bell
Yes, but Muslim boys get told the same thing.
Sorry, we were not being literal but general. To be more specific, Sunni Islam is very clear that if you are NOT a Muslim, you will suffer Hellfire. There are billions in their graves waiting even now for judgement day.
That's "chosen,"
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Posted by KyfhoMyoba on 11/08/11 05:10 PM
I'm curious, DB, how does this "survey" from the ADL measure "anti-semitism"?
How is "anti-semitism" defined? Could it, perhaps, include, maybe, something along the lines of, oh, I don't know, favoring Palestinian statehood? Maybe opposing Israeli settlements east of the Green Line? Hmm? Ya think? Is it possible that the ADL has confused (unintentionally, I'm so sure) Judaism and Semiticism with Zionism?
Reply from The Daily Bell
This is not really a complicated issue. Anti-Jew sentiment is generally "up" and as it affects a broad population (for irrational reasons) that's probably not a good thing. But our issue, as we have made perfectly clear is the use of terms like Zionism and Jewry to describe Money Power. Not all Zionists and Jews are involved in the money power racket. Simple as that. Sorry you can't see it.
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Posted by KyfhoMyoba on 11/08/11 05:00 PM
To clarify, as I have posted before, a Jew is a practitioner of Judaism, not necessarily a Hebrew, which is the seed of Abraham, and most European Jews are descended from Khazars and are not semitic. A Zionist is a promoter of the Jewish/Hebrew state of Israel, and most of these are evangelical Christians in the US, and Israelis are citizens of Israel, at least 20% of which are Arab.
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Posted by TMoore on 11/08/11 04:20 PM
A Jew is some one who feels Jewish.
Reply from The Daily Bell
Oy.
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Posted by TimurTheLame on 11/08/11 03:57 PM
@ Thor
Disagree. I have read at least 5 credible books strictly about Stalin ( Montefiore's is the best, access to latest materials and interviews) and dozens of books about his era and have found no definitive proof of Beria's Jewish roots.
Oligarchs? Stalin not " Bobo" Yeltsin right?
The history of Stalin's time is nowhere near as simple or conversely as radical as you put it in my understanding. There is still something about digesting a hard cover book on a topic that you are interested in to give one an understanding even beyond the author's words as opposed to reading some internet patchwork.
It's called invoking historical imagination to get a 'feel'. If in possession of some discipline, continue reading other sources, cross check and be brave enough to discard previously held understandings in the face of superior evidence.
The one piece of trivia that still fascinates me was that Putin's grandfather was Stalin's personal chef. If you knew how paranoid Stalin became and how many food tasters he had you would give this historical footnote some thought. How deep does the rabbit hole go?
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Posted by Thor on 11/08/11 12:00 PM
I certainly want to clear some things up for DB. Just because the media suddenly said in the 60'ies that the holocaust happened, then that does not mean "blaming a people" is the promotion of its extinction. LOL. And there is no greater example of this than the fall of Byzantium. Were its culture and dogma disappear but the greeks certainly did not. And such a destiny (for the sake of us) is best for the jews (khazar nomads)
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