Secession Movements in the 21st Century: Problems and Promise
By Daily Bell Staff - November 16, 2015

Catalonia rejects pro-secession leader for 2nd time … Regional Catalan lawmakers are debating whether to re-elect acting regional President Artur Mas, leader of a secessionist alliance promising to break away from Spain and form a new Mediterranean nation by mid-2017. Spain's Constitutional Court on Wednesday ordered the secession resolution temporarily suspended and warned Mas and his allies they could face criminal charges if they defy the ruling. – Washington Post

Dominant Social Theme: It's silly to split up large nation-states. Bigger must be better … right?

Free-Market Analysis: Serious secession movements are being pursued around the world – an expanding trend of what we call the Internet Reformation. It has other ramifications, as well, because secessionist unrest can provoke central government reactions, causing monetary and fiscal disturbances.

Yet secession with all its disruption may become an increasingly recognizable trend in the 21st century. An expansion of historical information galvanized by electronic communication and the commitment to more localized control – with the benefits that entails – drives these movements despite the predictable media and political scoffing.

One of the movements attracting the most attention is the Catalan secession alliance that intends to break away from Spain sometime in 2017 (see excerpt above). The movement has been set back by political pressure from Madrid and a recent unfavorable court decision, but the movement's momentum has been building.

Most recently, the leader of the Catalan secessionist movement Artur Mas had his candidacy for re-election as president down-voted in the Catalan parliament 73-62. Mas's Together for Yes alliance rallied behind him but Mas could not make alliances with other parties to win the vote. However, the parliament has until January 10 to elect a leader and form a government, and Catalan secession remains a vibrant and powerful movement with deep historical roots.

In fact, though he could face criminal charges from the Spanish government, Mas intends to continue his separatist quest, claiming a parliamentary mandate to do so. A Catalan constitution is in the works, and a regional currency is being contemplated along with local tax collection authority.

This is a signature of a number of these secession movements: They are not easily subdued. This is because they are the result of longstanding cultural and historical differences that have been re-energized. In Canada there is Quebec; in Britain there is Scotland (where another independence referendum is being contemplated); in the US there are a variety of states including most prominently Texas.

In fact, we learn from an article posted at the website of Texas radio WOAI that "The Texas Republican Party will be asked by a member of its Executive Committee next month to place a 'non binding resolution' on the ballot for the March primary calling for Texas to secede from the United States."

Here's more from WOAI:

"I do believe this is the closest we have been to a vote in two decades on this particular issue," Daniel Miller, who heads the Texas Nationalist Movement, told News Radio 1200 WOAI …

Miller says support for secession is surprisingly widespread … "People of Texas have consistently polled over the last decade in favor of this issue," he said … The Executive Committee will have to decide whether to place the resolution on the March primary ballot …

A famous Texas political figure in favor of secession is libertarian/conservative congressman Ron Paul. In February of this year, Buzzfeed posted an article about an address he'd given at the free-market oriented Mises Institute in January.

From the article:

Former Republican presidential candidate and congressman Ron Paul says secession is happening and it's "good news." Paul later predicted the states would stop listening to federal laws. Paul said secession would not be legislated by Congress, but would be de facto, predicting "when conditions break down…there's gonna be an alternative."

"And it's not gonna be because there will be enough people in the U.S. Congress to legislate it. It won't happen. It will be de facto. You know, you'll have a gold standard when the paper standard fails, and we're getting awfully close to that. Later, Paul said the Federal Reserve would end and the states would stop listening to federal laws they didn't agree with.

Of course, we know what happened the last time states "stopped listening to federal laws." And we can see the resistance to secession taking place in Spain right now. There are forces at work in the West especially that are fighting hard for a more centralized globe, and within this context, secession movements are doubtless seen as a significantly negative occurrence.

From an investment and lifestyle perspective, however, the drift toward secessionism is surely a net positive in that individual movements, if successful, would enhance local control and individual participation.

Unfortunately, these movements will surely also be responsible for near-term turmoil, and people would do well to have a plan to overcome any disruption they might cause.

After Thoughts

These movements are to be taken seriously along with the socio-political and economic disturbances that may accompany them. Here at The Daily Bell we emphasize individual human action and self-reliance in order to combat widespread disruption that may occur. Ownership of precious metals, access to farmland, clean food and potable water, even second residences abroad are all part of a strategy to protect oneself, one's wealth and one's family. For more information on these issues and more published in The Daily Bell Newswire, please consider signing up below.

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  • Umberto Indicci

    Effective “Top-down Secession” is another possibility, where details are worked out at the federal level for a number of potential reasons, one of which could be selective elimination of responsibilities.

  • Charlie Primero

    Secession from Britain helped Americans quite a lot.

    Secession from the Marxist US/UN Global State will help local American communities even more.

    • LawrenceNeal

      I saw an article about the number of British taxes at the time of the Revolution, in the single digits, and the number of US taxes today, you can only imagine. To be fair, I’m sure the number of taxes has also grown in Britain. Exchanging one State for another, one group of Hereditary Blood-Sucking Parasites for a different group of Elected Blood-Sucking Parasites.

  • Richard

    The last time states “stopped listening to federal laws,” would be when they legalized marijuana, or established sanctuary cities.

  • Samarami

    States are mindless abstractions ( ). “They” cannot secede.

    I am a sovereign state. Ask me about it. Sam

    • rahrog

      Correct. States do not have rights. Individuals will choose to secede, or join seccesionist movements, when they feel it is in their best intererest to do so. A free market of ideas is coming!!! SECEDE…SECEDE…SECEDE….Then SECEDE again.

      • Sam has already seceded and is a sovereign state. How did you do so, Sam? How do you maintain your sovereignty? Many people think about this concept, but perhaps you’ll share your thoughts on how one moves from “ideological thought” in this regard to action?

        • Samarami

          First, it was important for me to grasp that freedom is between my ears. I never use the term “rights” for a number of sound reasons. I make choices. If it’s going to be, it’s up to me — not thee. My freedom is not up to you or anybody else.

          One of my major challenges in life is circumnavigating and sidestepping those who would get in the way of the choices I make in life. There are plenty of them — hordes, in fact. Each and every day I must step out of my sovereignty for a few minutes to meet those challenges in one way or another. Paying 10.60 for merchandise marked 10 federal reserve notes is one example. I could wail and gnash teeth, but that would be paying an additional tribute to your “representatives”. I won’t expend emotional prices over psychopathic robbery.

          If I can buy on a “black” (read: legitimate) market, I will do so. But I won’t go without in order to “protest”. And except for whores and weed pushers, a decent black market is hard to find. So I merely submit to the second-level robbery and go on about my life. It’s a cost of doing business. 99% of folks are statists — and they will collect the tribute from me to hand over to their “representatives” (whom they fear).

          You’ve read my rant about the snakes where I grew up. I treat those who would interfere with my liberty in the same manner that I treat rattlesnakes. I don’t complain or nag about the need to wear boots to the woods or waders to the swamp. It’s part of taking those few minutes to guard against snakebite — along with watching where I reach or sit. Snakes bite if you come upon them unexpectedly.

          The advantage of a snake over a governmentalist, however, is marked and substantial. Snakes avoid me where possible. They want nothing to do with me, in fact. Therefore, I walk slowly and let ’em slither away in peace.

          Snakes do provide some benefits — governmentalists provide none that couldn’t be provided by a free marketplace better and less costly. Snakes feed off rodents, mosquitoes and other pests.

          So if you love your rat-free home, thank a snake.

          Not that easy with governmentalists (statists). They feed off the likes of me. They try to pull scams like “voluntary compliance” and many other obfuscations. They express the desire to “help” if I will just come into their “nest”. Not.

          Second, I came to comprehend that “authority” is nothing more than superstition. I’ve linked to our friend, Larken Rose’s book — but here it is again:

          The only “jurisdiction” is a loaded sidearm. Assimilate that and you will be on your way to freedom.

          So — does that mean I can just do what I please? Not on your life! I’m aware that if I aggress upon you or those you love you will react. You will likely respond with aggression of your own. The older I get, the harder I fall. So if for no other reason I will try to treat you and yours with honor and respect to avoid potential bruises.

          But beyond that, I truly want you to like me. Life’s more joyful that way. The more folks I can count as friends, the more fun living becomes. Simple stuff.

          And that, my dear friends, is what liberty is all about. I have no means by which to end aggression (except for my own) — and agree that psychopaths grouped into what we’ve come to call “government” are aggression personified.

          But I do have the means to be free. Here. Now. Where I’m “at”.


          • Words of wisdom, Sam. Thank you for sharing your path …

          • dauden

            Sam, I’m a simple woman. I have 4 (homeschooled, non-vaccinated) children with one, kind and well-mannered Englishman and I live on 5 acres in the Central Texas Hill country. I have Rose Larkin’s book which I started reading years ago. As I reread the first part again of this writing I am reminded of the reason I stopped reading it. I turned toward libertarian thinking the more I rationalized the ideas I read from Mises Institute’s publications (and associates-read DB). How one can become totally free without any authoritarian connection is to me without rationale. Everything living must have its author and protector/destroyer. To see examples of genuine kindness, generosity, selflessness would inspire one to suggest an author, or creator communicating such actions. To believe in a just, graceous, liberty-minded God who put on humanity and gave his life to save the whole of humanity, without partiality, from the death which they/we deserve (for who is without fault and can justify himself?), one has to at first hear of this God and his gospel (I Cor 15:1-4 KJV) and second, using his freewill, choose to believe him. Faith must enter the picture. “Superstition” is not necessarily faith. Faith can be based on reason and the freedom to choose to believe in an authority that gives us life eternal, starting now! Religion is not my game. I belong to no religious group. But by studying the Bible (KJV-only one not copyrighted) rightly-divided and dispensationally, meaning God spoke in diverse manner to various people with different instructions in different ages, today he is speaking through the Apostle Paul the gospel of the grace of God. On top of all you’ve done to create your own freedom, the ultimate freedom comes from knowing the truth which God is communicating today found in Romans through Philemon which is apart from what God spoke through the prophets to Israel in times past. Today a mystery is unfolded in these 13 epistles which most Bible readers have no clue about because confusion is the inevitable result when one does not rightly divide mystery from revelation (prophecy). See II Tim 2:15, KJV. Or for further help.

          • Samarami

            Ever now and again — especially in this next year — someone will question me regarding their political “election”. “Who ya gonna vote for?”

            My response: my Representative heads the Committee that sustains the rotation of the earth on its axis. I’m supporting the Incumbent.

            My favorite scientist is (was) the late Carl Sagan, who died far too young — I strongly suspect due to his unquestioning faith in a medical establishment that maintains a gigantic political cartel. They’re second largest lobbying group in this section of the world. Here is one of Sagan’s videos:


            I never dis or argue with religion. How am I to know how this entire thing called (for lack of better definition) “life” is brought about and maintained? Is it all mere happenstance? Believing that would imply a very strong faith in Zilch.


          • Randy

            You surely did hit the nail right on the head there, Dauden; SIMPLE!! You didn’t even get the name right, it’s Larken Rose!!
            What you really need to do is just STOP listening to your various “opinion leaders” (people or institutions that tell you what and how to think), and think for yourself. Believe this if nothing else, you will be much better off for it!
            Please don’t quote Scripture from ANY religion because they all have holes in them big enough to sail battle ships through, some of them even two or more abreast!

            If you want to remain the slave of someone or some institution, that’s fine by me, it’s your own choice, your life, but PLEASE do not sing the praises of being a slave and try to encourage others to become slaves as well for any reasons you may come up with. Slavery is a bad thing, no matter if you are a slave to another or to some belief system that cannot ever deliver on its false and empty promises. If you feel a need to give yourself to someone or some ideology, no one can stop you from doing that, it’s your choice. Please remember that it’s not the choice of others, and you cannot force them to make that choice just because YOU have made it and think that it’s good for others too.

            If religions really were able to deliver on what they promise, people would just RUN to them instead of having to be coerced into them in some way. Nobody who is actually intelligent and can think in a straight line longer than to just the end of their own nose ever looks to opinion leaders or religions for anything that cannot be proven by cold, hard facts. Religions are all works of fiction, it’s just that some of those works of fiction are more popular than others. How is it that “religions of peace” such as Christianity and Islam, can advocate so much death, destruction and violence, and still be thought of as being a good thing?? How is it that ANY God can tolerate so much child abuse right in His own houses of worship, and the pedophile priests are not severely punished straight by His hands? WHY does ANY god advocate for the killing of any of its human creations through wars or just because someone doesn’t want to be hypnotized into a false belief system??


          • Samarami

            Religion, just like sex and authoritarianism (“politics”), is the great distractor. Once you set out to argue any of those concepts you’ve eliminated the opportunity to achieve common sense and/or critical thinking. Carl Sagan had little time or patience for deep lamentations on any of those emotional topics. It is one of the reasons Sagan has been one of my favorites — although he was far from “anarchist”. I doubt he ever drew a paycheck that wasn’t either direct or highly seasoned with government “funding”, except revenue from publishing and speaking.

            He had this to say about atheism:

            “…An atheist is someone who is certain
            that God does not exist, someone
            who has compelling evidence against
            the existence of God. I know of no
            such compelling evidence. Because
            God can be relegated to remote times
            and places and to ultimate causes, we
            would have to know a great deal
            more about the universe than we do now
            to be sure that no such God exists. To
            be certain of the existence of God and
            to be certain of the nonexistence of God
            seem to me to be the confident extremes
            in a subject so riddled with doubt and
            uncertainty as to inspire very little
            confidence indeed…”

            And this to say about “belief”:

            “…You can’t convince a believer of anything;
            for their belief is not based on evidence,
            it’s based on a deep seated need to believe…”



          • Randy

            Here’s how I see it, Sam. Beliefs are only a poor substitute at best for knowledge and certainty. One can believe something all that they may want to, but that doesn’t then mean that it’s true at all. Except to them, of course. Now there’s nothing wrong per se with people having beliefs of one kind or another, so long as they keep them to themselves, but when those beliefs are forced upon others who do not want to share them, I’ve got a big problem with that. If a group of people want to share in common some beliefs, OK, fine. I see nothing wrong with that at all. But they MUST keep it to the ones who completely on their own want to share those common beliefs. I will fight to the death for my right to not share in someone’s beliefs, especially when I can easily demonstrate through some logic and facts, that they are completely wrong as wrong can be.
            Beliefs are based upon an inability to look and see what’s actually there. People who cannot confront facts will be found to be concocting beliefs or accepting the beliefs of others whom they admire for one reason or another.
            As to my belief in any god, well, I AM a god, so why wouldn’t I believe in myself? 😉


          • dauden

            Whoa, Randy, chill! I’m not singing the praises of slavery through religion. I hate man made institutions and do not trust opinion leaders just as you do. There is no coercion going on here on either of us. I merely professed faith (oh what an offensive word) in an author of a universe that demands intelligence of its origin. Evidently you are ignorant of the King James (preserved from its original writing) because your criticism is falsely based. Instead you yourself have taken the opinions of others and judged the book without looking into it personally to verify its claims. You may have dismissed it as fairy tale for various reasons or because of an experience you had. But I am most certain you cannot even understand it because you’ve chosen rather to place your faith in science, falsely so-called and because you have no knowledge in the revelation of the mystery. The bible needs no interpreter, it interprets itself if studied by right division as required of us to do (2 Tim 2:15). I can believe all cold, hard verifiable facts that expert scholars and professionals bring us but I will not put faith in theories such as Darwin’s natural selection which even many scientists dispute. But another day on the faith in evolution.
            You have learned from opinions of others that the bible has many flaws and that God does not deliver on his promises? There is another god who rules this world and does not want people to believe the bible because he wants the power to rule over them. Sounds globalistic I should think. Prophecy speaks of that but I’m not concerned with prophecy because it doesn’t concern me. I live in an age where the God of the bible is not condemning anyone, including warmongers, child molesters, robbers, liars, adulterers, murderers, or even yourself! God has taken all his wrath out on his Son 2000 years ago and has made peace with the world. Problem is, the world does not want peace. This age of God’s grace will end and He will take up judgement again against the wrong men do. But you don’t want to be here when he does.
            By putting your trust in the finished work of the cross you can be at peace with God today. His ways are not our ways so you cannot confine this true author of the universe. “Let God be true and every man a liar”.
            This gospel may provoke you but it must be told, that Christ died on the cross for our sins, he was buried for three days and rose again for our justification. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved! This is the cold, hard fact! 🙂

          • Randy

            Um, yeah, right. You are in such an obvious state of confusion, no one would ever follow your “advice” for anything. Unless they are eager to be duped, swindled and cheated, that is. Show me someone who has any kind of proof of a heaven, paradise or hell actually existing, please. I’ve not yet seen one T-shirt, coffee mug or key fob coming from one of those places.
            I can see that you’re just a “no responsibility” case, and therefore must ascribe the reason for and cause of everything to some mythological entity with no proof of it at all. But I on the other hand, can show you evolution happening every day! Have you ever heard about germs developing a resistance to antibiotics? Every time that you expose a bacterium to a not quite toxic dose of a poison, what happens? The next generation of cells can tolerate that dosage more easily. And over time, we have through our own actions, created now what are called Super Bugs, which require the development of stronger and stronger drugs to kill them! Now if that isn’t evolution happening, what is it? Is it some god intervening on behalf of, and saving the germs from near certain death for some reason or other?
            What language was this book of which you speak so highly written in? When it was translated into a form of language that you can read, how do you know that changes either massive or slight weren’t introduced? Oh, this god of which you speak wouldn’t allow such a thing to occur, but yet lets the priests defile young boys and even girls sometimes right in these houses of worship? Oh, this must mean that you can read the original script, and have a copy of it, right?
            WHY do churches require tithes? Why don’t these gods just create all of the funds needed for any purpose, instead of having to BEG for them from the ones who are duped and brainwashed by people like YOU?? Here’s a good anecdote for you to ponder. Back when I was about 13 or 14, my best friend was a boy who came from a family of Catholics. We were talking about income taxes and being able to write donations to churches off. He told me about how his dad had just gone down to the church they went to with a form of some kind, to show the IRS that he had given away some of his funds to them. One of the priests there took the form and slyly said “Oh, you’ve given us about 500 dollars last year, didn’t you (wink, wink)? He was so elated that this man who had taken vows had just broken one of the Ten Commandments for him!! I think that it was that one about not bearing false witness? So now if he’s going to lie over a measly 500 FRNs that are actually worth nothing at all, so this guy can “cheat” on his supposed valid tax bills, what OTHER things is he willing to sell his soul for? If he actually does have one to sell, that is. So you can now see (hopefully) that any god who can know when a sparrow falls, but yet has to ask a mere mortal man where his brother is, and doesn’t know when sins are being committed right under His very own galactic nose, can’t be too bright of a fellow!! Oh, and my friend’s dad probably needed ten years or more to be able to afford giving away 500 FRNs to that church or any place else, and they’d only been going to it for about 5 or 6 years. Boy oh boy, talk about a MIRACLE!!!


          • Samarami

            “…Now if that isn’t evolution happening, what is it?…”

            Homeostasis. An absolute miracle when one thinks about it long enough and hard enough. Sam

          • Randy

            No, you’re wrong there, Sam. Homeostasis is where an organism maintains, regulates certain internal conditions and functions via various feed back controls. Look it up if you don’t believe me. If the level of CO2 in the blood is too high, respiration and heart rate will increase in order to get rid of it. If there is too much water in the body, the kidneys will extract it from the blood stream and the bladder will have to be emptied. That is homeostasis at work.
            It comes from the Greek ‘homeo’ meaning unchanging, and ‘stasis’ meaning standing. I didn’t think what you said was right when I saw stasis in there, which usually means to remain unchanged or static, so I double checked just to make sure I was remembering correctly. There’s not much in the way of miracles going on there, when you take into consideration the fact that the genetic line is just trying to preserve itself as best it can. Or is some god or other making changes at the genetic code level so as to preserve that genetic line? If that were the case, then why not just make all bacteria immune to any and all toxins that might be thrown at it?


          • dauden

            Well, aside from being a tad jumbled, I think I get you. I say, I do not base my disbelief in evolution on one thesis. It surrounds many disconnects in scientific theories. And I do subscribe to your vilification of the Roman Catholic church and its’ atrocities. As I stated before, I do not belong to any religious sect or group think. Any person or institution that harms another person should be prosecuted and dealt with accordingly. But they at such level of power and wealth inevitably escape prosecution. I abhor this!
            You can do your own research on the origins of the King James Bible. I have compared bible versions and personally note the “mother” church involved in all major modern translations which change words to support their religion by using the Alexandrian text. The textus receptus is faithful to the original language that the authorized version is based upon.
            Regarding your friend’s dad, sadly he succumbed to his religion of choice and believed the lie. Tithing was a requirement for the nation of Israel during their ancient biblical history. Unfortunately, churches continue to use it to make a buck. Again, one would have to study the Bible according to the revelation of the mystery revealed to Paul (see Romans thru Philemon) to clear up all the confusion in Christianity. Just as there is the MSM, there is MSC (main stream christianity). Those who do not study the bible, rightly divided, simply don’t get it. All denominations, including the catholic church–albeit they are much more political–would fold like the stack of cards they’re built on if they did.
            Today, God is not dealing with man using the law as he did with Israel where he blessed or cursed them based on their obedience or lack thereof. He has now made peace with the world when he judged our wrong on his Son 2000 years ago. But the world at large does not want peace. It holds on to its prejudices, greed, pride, hatred, just as you do. One wrong separates us from a holy, but just God. The good news is we can be fully justified and made righteous by receiving freely his payment for our wrong. Any attempt by good works on our part does not cut it. We can never measure up to His standards. But by His grace, its the best “trade” money can’t buy!

          • Randy

            Well please tell me then what the inconsistencies are in the idea that life forms change over time into ones that are better suited for survival. That is all Darwin was basically saying, that organisms change over time, and that the changes that are for the good, the better survival of a species, get passed along, and the ones that do NOT contribute to better survival do not get passed along. Some guy was saying that evolution cannot explain why the rhinoceros has a horn on it’s nose, but yet the evidence is as plain to see as the nose on you own face if you just watch two rhinos fighting for mating privileges or to defend their young! That thing is a deadly weapon of the highest caliber, and they’re NOT afraid to use it! They have no other defense mechanism other than their huge size and great strength.
            Why prosecute someone, instead of just letting everyone else in the community know that they are someone who cannot be trusted so no one has any dealings with them, they are completely shunned?
            There is no logic at all in the idea of how sacrificing someone can keep someone else from suffering the results of their sinning. That’s just plain crazy talk going on there. No REAL god would ever be so illogical. I suggest that you study the subject of logic and how to think like a logician, and then do so.


          • dauden

            I accept the meaning of evolution in terms of organisms changing over time, change in gene frequencies, descent with modification within existing species. Though I do believe biological evolution was guided by an Intelligent Design rather than by accident and that the arts and sciences reveal the genius of nature rather than an illusion. Design may be detectable in specific features of living things such as your rhinoceros and it may also be detectable in natural laws and the structure of the cosmos. I am, however, interested in the origin of life and even Darwin wrote in later editions of The Origin of Species that life may have “been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one”. We, both of us, believe differently based on the collection of evidence we both have been able to consider.

            Shunning someone would be a valid argument for dealing with a non-trustworthy individual but that would only work effectively in local, small communities around the globe. How do you propose dealing with him in a metropolis? Inside the Vatican?

            You are right that sacrificing someone cannot pay for the sins of another. The difference in the cross 2000 years ago, is that the Biblical God who is without sin put on human flesh and voluntarily laid his own life down—no one took it, as he says:

            50 “And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

            51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest’s, and smote off his ear.

            52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

            53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

            54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

            55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are
            ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I
            sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

            56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.” Matt 26:50-56

            Prophecies in the Bible were sometimes made centuries before they came to pass. And over 300 alone were fulfilled about Jesus Christ when he came the first time to earth; the remaining have to do with future promises concerning an earthly kingdom and his second return. No one but the Intelligent Designer of the universe could know the plan that was hid from the foundation of the earth and unfolded perfectly through guided history and now made known to the Apostle Paul in the revelation of the mystery — that you and I could receive the riches of his mercy, have a hope of salvation, the promise of a new life without pain and suffering? Where is our hope today outside of God’s grace to save us from ourselves? I have not found anything man has to offer that can really save us, can you? –Debra

          • Randy

            Well how much time are you referring to here? And WHEN did t all begin? What are “gene frequencies”? What do you mean by “descent” there? Life forms change over time, and the changes that result in more and better survival get passed on to future generations. How far do you think a gene expression would get in a group of organisms if it led to LESS survival? Like a gene that caused blindness or lameness at puberty? Who wants to have less able bodies around? That genetic trait would not be around for very long, I can guarantee you that!
            What “accident” are you referring to here? A beneficial change in any organism line might be an accident when it first occurs, but its propagation is NO accident at all. It’s not by a roll of the dice that good genes succeed over bad ones.
            I don’t believe at all, my mindset is to look for the FACTS and then go with those.
            At this point, I’d like to say “let’s set the way back machine in motion and see where it takes us”, but I need to keep this as short as possible as I have many things to do today. Instead, I will paste in my paper The Logic-O-Meter and let you read that.



            Logic-O-Meter; exactly what is it and how does it work? The LOM is a
            mental abstract, a construct made up of certain laws which one could
            call maxims or axioms, ideas that are valid and pretty much
            self-explanatory if one just stops looking at them with jaundiced
            eyes. The LOM is no respecter of religion, politics or any other
            fixed ideas. It is a melding of the subjects logic and computer
            programming. It has no sacred cows. The very concept that such a
            device, or mode of thinking and analysis could ever possibly be
            invented or valid goes against the very thought processes (if you
            could really call them thought processes without laughing out loud)
            of those who continually depend upon certain opinion leaders to do
            their thinking for them.

            formulation of the LOM was what then allowed for the formulation of
            The Two Magic Questions and then their further refinement. For
            without the LOM, no one could or would have the mental clarity needed
            to see what they are all about and then formulate and refine them.
            The Two Magic Questions are; What is the EXACT AMOUNT of fraud that
            anyone has the right to commit? What is the EXACT AMOUNT of fraud
            that anyone is obligated to endure? The further refinement of them
            is “What is the basic premise that is being operated off of in
            the instant case?”

            what are these axioms that comprise this piece of mental machinery
            which has no real form or substance to it, but yet has an infinite
            value? They are presented in no particular order of importance as
            ALL of them are vitally important to the proper operation of the
            construct. Remove even just one of them, and the whole thing
            immediately slows down and will not work properly. Skewed results
            will occur which can then be held in place ONLY with lots of human
            emotion and reaction.

            SUBJECT TO


            OF TRUTH


            IT HAS ANY



            DECEPTION IN IT


            AS WELL AS




            SHOWN TO BE



            OTHER VALID


            CONTRARY IS TRUE.

            IT MEANS

            IS TOO



            IT IS







            IT MUST FIRST



          • dauden

            Good genes succeed over bad ones? So over time (I can’t know how much time) able bodies will survive over the disabled ones? I don’t see that happening today. I see a lot of sick and dying humans. We are not getting more intelligent, more enlightened, healthier, happier than in other time periods. What I do see happening is an elite percentage of powerful, wealthy and politically driven group of individuals planning global governance who will be able to create a new society based on “good genes” while eradicating “bad genes” at will. Where will you fit in?
            I’m believing the preserved Biblical text which tells me that God, who is Spirit, created this world in perfection, man willfully disobeyed, and we suffer the consequences of his choice in a fallen and insufferable world. But God always had a way for man to be at peace if he followed His instructions whereby man could live freely. Today He is offering grace to all mankind by the cross. Tomorrow (I can’t know that time frame either) He will again take vengeance on His enemies. Where will you fit in when that takes place? His ultimate plan is to restore the earth and literally rule here Himself with laws that define who He is. Where “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down
            with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
            and a little child shall lead them”.
            I know you don’t believe this and I don’t want to engage in scientific debate with you because your faith is in that and mine is in God’s Word. I don’t have all knowledge and neither do you so you will have to believe someone about some things. The “facts” are not all in yet.
            I propose our discussion has ended. I would hope that you would trust the gospel of Christ but you probably won’t. So long, Debra

          • We agree this conversation has ended.

          • Samarami


            “…How one can become totally free without
            any authoritarian connection is to me without

            At the risk of overextending my welcome on this aging thread, Dauden’s concern as stated above — and how it applies to genuine liberty thinking — is absolutely essential regarding any basic understanding and acceptance of anarchy. Because she homeschools her 4 kids. Most of us reading this will applaud her for that. So let’s look at her term, “authoritarian connection”. Because homeschooling in lieu of docilely turning children over to state agents’ “education” is indeed exemplifying an authoritarian connection, or decision. But I submit this is the “authority of love”.

            The human family is the only legitimate governing unit. That’s my opinion, and many here at DB will agree. All other “authority” stems from coercive interlopers — psychopaths

            Do you “own” your children? My children are MY children. All are now over 40 — 5 of the 7 now over 50 — but they are MINE. Interestingly, 2 of my kids are now my conservators — you might say they “own” me. Voluntarily. I am “their” dad. For one thing it keeps the white man’s grubby fingers out of the cookie jar.

            There are other reasons, but we’re talking about “authoritarian connection” of love when expressing the parent-child relationship.

            And I said nothing about being “totally free”. I’m not “free” to walk barefoot in the woods or swamp — unless I want to risk snakebite. Or to go roaring 60 mph through your neighborhood on a road upon which the white man has posted 25 mph signs. Unless I have no regard for you or your children’s safety. Sam

          • dauden

            I can agree with you Sam that the family is the only legitimate governing unit. What I need to know is how the family begun. In all the reading and studying I have done to find answers which permit me to live freely and peacefully, I eventually found in the Apostle Paul’s writings. I realize Randy will commit me to slavery again and insist I am subjecting myself to someone else’s authority or opinion not my own. However, that is a Christian problem which I do not have.
            You see, 98.5% of Christianity today follow spiritual leaders and into denominations and because they do not study and think for themselves. Mind you I do believe all Scripture is inspired of God and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness, but not all of it is written TO us today. Most of the Bible concerns the nation of Israel and its prophetic program involving the earth.
            Outside the family you contend that all other “authority” stems from coercive interlopers. Coercion relates to or uses force or threats to fulfill its will. The inspired and preserved Word reveals to us today that we have peace with God by the cross. Period! This revelation does not rest on belief by coercion but by experiencing new life by trusting. That is the mystery and power! One does not have to be educated to trust the gospel to be saved, yet one who is educated can further study to grasp the magnificence of this revelation!
            I do understand I am relating information in “religious terms” as many will agree. Yet when I gather all the pieces together…..economics, political agendas, familial and social units, verifiable scientific data, healthy artistic marvels of expression, and natural law…..I find it all comes together in an Author of the universe who is personal and derives pleasure from a relationship with His creation. As I stated in another comment, this Author has an adversary and it is he who now governs our land and those not free in the liberty that Christ makes us are, in fact, captive to his lies. –Debra

          • Samarami

            Dauden, I have no argument whatsoever with what you’ve said. In a previous comment I alluded to topics fraught through with emotion — so much so that it will be to no avail to get caught up in argumentation. The Book (Hebrew, interestingly enough) is said to be the largest in sales out of all other books, hands down:


            It is postulated, promulgated, pounded by each and every “religion” (denomination) calling themselves “Chr-stian” (the term of which only appears 3 times in the entire text, each time as rather of an epithet). If small, independent “bible study” groups (increasingly more popular than staid, old denominations) are counted they number into the thousands. I won’t attempt to pick a “winner”. Each individual preaching from It or about it claims to “…have The Truth…”

            And you’re a-gonna die unsaved if you don’t accept it.

            None that I know of see it as a book of anarchy. From stem to stern. The fulcrum, or central theme, can be read in about 1.5 minutes: The youngest of your homeschooled kids should be able to read it and comprehend what s/he’s reading.

            I accuse religionists and atheists alike with denying a basic, fundamental pathway to peace: anarchy. The late Delmar England, a kinda/sorta (but non-admitted) atheist, seems to me to have come closest to outlining it. He is unknown among “important libertarian circles”, and only wrote one major essay and a couple others:


            I predict you’ll delete it in disgust before you’re halfway through. Most libertarians do. That’s why England got no “play” among the gurus. Then he up and died. I believe he paralleled the central theses of The Hebrew Book, but without the archaic or obscure words.

            But, as Randy has stated, what I believe doesn’t change the truth. But what I believe will remain the truth to me unless I keep an open mind to you, Randy, and all the other good folks at DB. Sam

          • dauden

            I believe, Sam, this Book is the largest in sales because people are looking for answers but inevitably are not able to comprehend its content because it takes studying as the Book itself requires of its readers. When you get to the part where it says “study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth”, well, most will have seen this verse in their NIV, or another modern (corrupted) copyrighted version, which translates it ” Do
            your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does
            not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Can you see a major difference in these two translations? Studying is “a detailed investigation and analysis of a subject or situation” or “the devotion of time and attention to acquiring knowledge on an academic subject, especially by means of books.”
            Rightly dividing, is learning that there is a division in the Scripture and it isn’t Old Testament and New Testament! It is between prophecy and the mystery! 99% of religious folks I speak with have no clue of a mystery in their bibles. And so they rely on some form of good works to “be approved” (going to church, tithing, getting baptized, grasping on to any religious teaching, etc). ANY work on our behalf to obtain a righteous standing with the God of the inspired Book falls short. ALL the work was accomplished at the cross on behalf of the whole world and justification of the wrongdoer and the resulting righteousness can only be imputed when one believes this, plus nothing! This is pure and amazing grace!
            I believe this message is relative to the issues discussed on this site because so much despair and condemnation is visible from lashing out at the powers that be and not seeing where our hope lies.
            We will never change this world or ever truly find a safe place to hide because it’s broke! It will restart one day when God’s plan is fulfilled which is outlined in this wonderful Book. But that prophecy is not only a topic of much confusion, it is not even relative to us in this age of God’s grace, which age will end and God will again judge the world according to their works under the law. Believers in this age of grace have an inheritance worthy of grasping “by studying Romans through Philemon”, doctrine for us today. Receive His grace today, “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” – Acts 16:31, KJV –Debra

          • dauden

            Additionally, your biblegateway link is not relative to the grace dispensation we live in today. Your anarchism link is looooong. I will peruse its content and reply.

          • dauden

            Taking a look at anarchism as a general philosophy including England’s thoughts and books which I have by Albert Jay Nock and Rothbard, I have concluded without exhaustive reading for I am presently involved in much satisfying work (which includes farming ancient grains and creating a local grain economy–I am an artisan baker by trade), that many anarchist ideals have merit and I personally subscribe to not a few. But there still remain some problem for me. If anarchism is good for the educated who can rationalize these ideas in their mind and satisfy their souls in this life through virtue as their happiness, how does the poor man or the laborer find relief? Some men are born into wealth and/or attain levels of education by effort. Others must struggle to make a living. It still appears to me as survival of the fittest mind. Not all humans are included in this lofty achievement nor are given an eternal hope. Anarchists die and much of their writings disappear soon after.
            As I read Insanity as the Social Norm (up to The Mind Dichotomy), I wrote down much to reply to from just the first section. But I cannot sit at length to answer many of his claims that I object to, as I still have 3 children at home and a lot on my plate. So I will comment on one or two points. The main one which I find in most anti-christian literature (b/c its an attack on christian thinking rather than against the authorized biblical text for most have never studied all 66 books in context) is that this “Christian God” is a myth because he does not follow the laws of nature. What if, as He claims, he created the natural world and can “direct action” outside as well as inside of it? That this “omni” God “hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” Anarchism is elitist. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (a change of mind, not repenting of sins which is preached). I am not here to stand up for the little guy, I’m not a socialist. But I am called to be an ambassador for the One who came and died and resurrected from the dead. He alone can give eternal life AND has preserved a Book to this day which as you may know has had many attempts on it to be destroyed. This book can answer all the questions that life generates and has a certain hope of salvation for ALL men, not just those who create a state of liberty in their minds

          • dauden

            Sam, I inadvertently hit the post tab when replying here. Are you able to find it? It posted as dauden to dauden instead of to Samarami.

          • dauden

            Sam, I’m just alerting you to a follow-up reply on a reading of a link you posted but I hit a tab that replied back to me so not sure you would get notified. You might want to check the Secession comment page to see it. Smiles, Debra

          • This conversation has ended, as well.

  • PatrickHenry1789

    I have a feeling Dear Leader, Chairman Maobama would take the Abe Lincoln route if it were to gain some serious traction in America.

  • LawrenceNeal

    A Catalan regional currency is being contemplated along with local tax collection authority. Exchanging one State for another.

    • It is very possible that a smaller state may be less oppressive than a larger one just because of a lack of resources. We would see Catalan devolution as progress.

    • Blank Reg

      Agreed. That was their first mistake. “tax collection authority”.

  • freedixie

    Separation is vital for our survival. Separate now.

  • disqus_1Op5S8jvui

    Secession has started in Europe too and the sovereign countries of the EU, the Euro, the Eurogroup, and Schengen are all coming apart at the seams. Individual countries are going to thrive as independent as they used to be and were doing fine, thank you. The existing dictatorship of the EU in its capital, Brussels has failed and is now on lock down and on the run on the fear of one lose potential dangerous killer. The whole city is locked up. Military law is in place. The attempted techno bureaucratic dictate via federal control via the Euro printed by the ECB is coming apart like the experimental super fast tgv which sadly killed about 20. It is historic times, however the Eu is fully responsible for its incompetence to having allowed murderers in to our cities, our societies, neighbouring our families at the invitation of Madame Merkel and more. They have failed tragically and are responsible for the suffering of all europeans both with their financial incompetence of the last 15 years as well as failing to fulfil the No 1 responsibility, to protect our borders and our security. No excuses, they have failed triumphantly and they shall be replaced soonest.

  • FEEuser

    “Directed History” would have it that this divisive issue was settled once and for all back in 1865. But lo, it lives yet, stirring up the hearts and minds of citizens far and wide. How should people approach this in 2015? True, memories are long of the disastrous and tragic results of the last experiment in secession in 1860. Perhaps it has finally come to pass that people may safely lose their fear of the ghost of the war-mongering statist, Abraham Lincoln, and realize that the so-called United States is an artificial construct and an enemy of freedom, whose time has come and gone. I submit that a dispassionate, rational, and eminently practical reconsideration of the “American System” is now in order.

    One thing that ought to calm people’s nerves is the idea of the naturalness and practicality of secession. Secession is just another word for “decentralization.” Members of societies break away from older political orders because those orders become onerous, arbitrary, war-mongering, menacing obstacles to progress and destroyers of freedom, practitioners of protectionism and monopoly instead of free markets.

    US history is badly in need of an overhaul. Think of it this way. To evolve from little crown colonies to city-states to a far flung set of colonies many times that size on the eastern seaboard of North America on the eve of the war of 1776-1781 (a war of secession, NOT “revolution”) involves an enormous growth in complexity, geographic distance, weighty matters grown more weighty, disputes between sections and interests, and human interaction on scales so much grander than before. It is to move from the already challenging to the exceedingly difficult. Then, from the latter to a country which stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific is off the scale, and precludes that any single governing body in one place could possibly manage all the affairs and economies of it. Recent historic events and trends are proof that the American experiment in collectivism is failing and that people must have rational, workable alternatives ready at hand for the decentralized provision of peace, security, and prosperity, lest they fall victim to the chaos, destruction, strife, unrest, and violence which collectivization and coercion bring in their wake.

    For the Libertarian, the preferred alternative to all this madness is the anarcho-capitalist society.

    It is perfectly natural and fitting that people should think and act in ways which, mostly invisibly, move a society away from the crony collectivist, central banking, perpetual war model of the status quo toward the anarcho-capitalist model.

    Yet, many people have bought into the propaganda of the power elite disseminated ever since the days of Lincoln and the War for Southern Independence, the erroneous notion that secessionists are, at best, kooks, and at worst, “traitors” and blood thirsty revolutionaries, hell bent on mindless violence.

    Nothing could be further from the truth! It is the STATISTS who disturb the peace and bring us violence born of their police state and perpetual war. Secession is a NORMAL and vitally needed political and economic innovation for the provision of renewal and regeneration in a world in a constant state of flux and endless transformation.

    Secession is necessary, good, and in the course of human events, to be expected. In spite of the political obstacles constantly put in the way of people by crooks who invent “nation-states,” secession will, sooner or later, win the day because individual human action is what makes the world go round and economies run, not collectivist abstractions dreamed up by a gang of thieves writ large who attempt to rule others FAR beyond their physical, informational, and geographical limitations.