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Why Gold Sells Off and What Will Happen Next ...

Saturday, November 19, 2011 – by Anthony Wile

Anthony Wile

Reuters just published an interesting article that makes the following point: "As the Dow struggled over the past few weeks, gold has confounded market watchers by tracking equities, even as the European debt crisis escalated. U.S. December gold futures fell $3.80 to $1,716.40 an ounce."

This brings up an interesting question. I will try to answer it in this essay. Two weeks ago, the Dow Jones Industrial average was up marginally and so was the price of gold. This past week the Dow lost some 300 points and gold sold off as well. Yes, it would seem that now "gold tracks stocks."

Further, we are informed that there is a "rush to safety" when the stock market runs down. People sell off both equities and gold for the "safe-harbor" of US notes and bonds.

This is a kind of dominant social theme, in my view: Gold is now to be portrayed (by Reuters and other elite-controlled media) as just another investable commodity like IBM or Exxon. But this ignores some important points. I researched them to make sure of my conclusions.

Start at the beginning, then. The powers that be HATE gold. Money Power is derived from the central bank printing press. The idea that people on their own can go out and dig up money out of the earth means that the people STILL have the opportunity to better themselves independently of the power elite.

This is very hard to tolerate if you are trying to set up a regime to rule the world, as the Anglosphere elite apparently wants to do. If people can still get wealthy independently then you don't have TOTAL control. And total control is what Money Power seeks, or so it surely seems.

For this reason, the powers-that-be do everything they can to manipulate and squash the price of gold. This is why fiat money bulls are likely longer by years and decades than precious metals bulls. The elites drag out the fiat bull markets as long as they can.

The last big precious metals bull market was in the 1970s, and it lasted about ten years. Then came the fiat leg that lasted about TWENTY years. Two-to-one. This precious metals bull market started right around 2000. I knew it, too, and so did many others.

Gold has been going up throughout the 2000s. Of course, the stock market has been going up as well, and that has obscured the gold bull market that we are in. Because of this, many in the mainstream media can avoid talking about business cycles and simply talk about gold being "in a bubble."

This is not so. The early 2000s were marked by tremendous monetary stimulation, with more to come. This is what happens when equity markets blow off. To begin with, central banks print money and inflate the stock market until the boom turns to a bust.

But you can't keep doing this. Eventually, the market distortions become too damaging. There is a limit after all, and we have reached it. Right around the turn of the century, the bust was enormous and the resultant stimulation only made it worse. The cycle had turned and gold (and silver) was on its way up.

Because the cycle had turned, the resultant stimulation was bound to fail, and it did. This failure is referred to as the "mortgage crisis" or "housing bust." It began in America but soon spread throughout the world.

People have attributed the housing bust to many things, including deregulation. But when one steps back and looks at the larger picture, the reality becomes evident. The Austrians are correct. In the modern era, economies are driven by central bank inflation. First a boom and then a bust. Had nothing to do with re-regulation or anything. Purely a banking phenomenon at its heart.

Here at the Daily Bell we've explained numerous times that this is likely the "final" bust. The dollar reserve system is probably dead. It died when the Fed had to print at least US$16 trillion to support crony banks and financial firms throughout the world during the height of the 2008 crisis.

The powers-that-be don't want to admit this, of course. Even in this Internet era, they're hiding their manipulations as best they can. Even as they try to replace the current financial system with a world currency, they are struggling to maintain the present system.

To do this, they confuse the issue. They certainly don't want to speak about the golden bull, because then they would have to speak about the business cycle and they don't want to do that, either, because THEN they would have to explain how central banks DRIVE this ruinous and horrible cycle.

So they make up stories. The latest story is that gold is not just another investable asset like a stock and indeed tracks the stock market. These last two weeks are being held up, once more, as proof positive.

Of course, to some degree this is true. Institutions have begun to buy gold and they do buy and sell gold the way they buy and sell stocks. But the idea that the average investor sells his or her gold when the stock market goes down (in order to buy Treasuries) is ludicrous. Doesn't happen.

Gold tracked the Dow in the 1970s, too. I checked. The Dow and gold prices rose and fell together, roughly anyway. That's because the big institutions were likely buying gold then, too.

But in 1979 and 1980 something else happened. The gold market went vertical. Look it up for yourself. The verticality is astonishing. From about US$400 to US$800, and then right back down again. This is what will likely happen during the last phase of THIS golden bull. But we are not there yet. Wait.

People say that the 1980s were anomalous because of the great inflation and because the Hunt Brothers tried to corner the silver market. That's what caused the verticality too. But this is nonsense as well. Because of the central banking business cycle, this golden bull will end the same way as the one in the 1970s, if it is not interrupted. It almost has to.

Why? Because the powers-that-be may keep printing money and keep inflating in support of this horrible fiat money system until the bitter end. They may FORCE a blow-off of the golden bull, just the way they forced one in 1980.

"But the verticality was due to market manipulation," some will object. Of COURSE there was market manipulation. If it hadn't been the Hunt Brothers it would have been something else. Blow-offs FEATURE market manipulations.

Here's my bottom-line point, from an investment standpoint. During the 1970s, people could have been fooled by the way stock markets and gold markets acted. They might have seen the parallelism and simply concluded that gold was just another commodity or that it was acting like stock.

This would prove to be a major miscalculation. Bull markets always come to a head in the modern era, thanks to central banking, which always turns a common cold into pneumonia.

That's how you should think of this market, by the way. The market has a quiet fever right now, but before the power elite is through poisoning this business cycle, that fever will have become a raging, out of control sickness. There is no telling how far the price of gold may travel.

Of course, when prices go so high, people start buying paper gold, which they are already starting to do. This is where the losses come. Ask Gerald Celente, who chose not to simply buy physical gold (in this instance) and was playing the futures market as way to do so. He lost his account, apparently, when MF Global went bust.

And this is another point. This same horrible central bank-inspired business cycle inevitably causes an uptick in "financial fraud." It's inevitable. Then elites and their associates and enablers use the resultant bust to pass MORE laws and MORE regulations, further consolidating state power in support of their damnable central banking racket.

So don't be fooled by all this talk about gold tracking the Dow. It did in the 1970s, too. Right until it went vertical. People who held gold then in many forms – and got out – made fortunes.

Easy enough, then. Just hold gold until it goes to US$5,000 and sell. Not so fast. Today, thanks to what we call the Internet Reformation, too many savvy people understand what I have just explained. And the elites who control central banking know it, too. I have a hard time believing that the powers-that-be will let gold go to US$5,000 (or wherever it would ordinarily end up).

Something else will intervene. A war. A deliberate promotional campaign against Wall Street and "speculators." A terrible, expanding Depression that will cause the confiscation of gold and the creation of a new worldwide money standard. Or perhaps all three at once.

People who own gold and silver will no doubt be rewarded (at least to some degree) before any of this (potentially) takes place. But one needs to be careful now! We are entering another leg of the cycle, in my view. To ignore the possibilities is to be blind to the reality of modern history. The last time this sort of blow-off took place was in the 1930s. Look what happened then.

You remember, don't you? The New York Fed illegally printed money and FDR covered it up with his "bank holidays." The power elite of the day used every promotional trick they could to shift the blame. They pointed fingers at "Wall Street," arrested thousands, destroyed companies, passed Draconian new regulations (that only prolonged the recession and further institutionalized the Fed), confiscated gold and then – finally – when nothing else worked, started a world war.

That's my take on it anyway. Call me a conspiracy theorist. That's OK. To me, it's all directed history and more in tune with reality theory.

And it's happening again ...




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  Posted by Anthony Migchels on 12/23/11 01:12 PM

There are, by the way, three reasons why Bankers love Gold.

The first one is, that Gold is basically a de facto World Currency. Sure, every nation will coin it's own. But an ounce is an ounce, is an ounce.

The second reason is, they probably have a de facto monopoly on the stuff.
It's much more difficult to monopolize bits 'n bytes (the modern face of 'paper').

The other one is this:
Interest payments for credit created by bookkeeping is easy to refute.
The money didn't exist until it was loaned out and will cease to exist when repaid.
Bad story, especially in this day and age.

Interest on Gold is more difficult to explain away. And interest is what our bankers love most.

  Posted by Anthony Migchels on 12/23/11 12:55 PM

Probably, this article is even a little pessimistic about Gold.

Sure, Gold is popular as an inflation hedge.

But the real reason to speculate with Gold is the idea of a new Gold Standard.

If that happens, Gold can go all the way to 40k.

As long as this anticipation has a basis in fact, Gold will continue to appreciate.

Since our Banker friends own most of the Gold and love it, they are probably working towards a new Gold Standard as we speak. If they succeed in creating a new monopoly for Gold, they will have won an important battle.

This is far from an unlikely scenario, so Gold seems a good investment for now.

However, if Ron Paul gets his way and there will indeed be a free market for currencies, than Gold will be in trouble, because it will have to face cheap, interest free credit.

  Posted by Anthony Migchels on 12/22/11 03:48 AM

The idea that TPTB hate gold is really very questionable.

We used to have a gold standard, until quite recently actually.

TPTB didn't change in 1972.

They just changed the means of exchange from Gold to Paper.

And what changed?

Not much.

Instead of having boom bust cycles with gold, we have them with paper.
Instead of paying interest for gold, we are paying it for paper.

No, TPTB are very happy with Gold's popularity of late: the tons of Gold in their coffers has very much appreciated in value.

They are ready to unleash a new Gold standard, when people are fed up with paper based fractional reserve banking.

Only when we see costs for capital go down really significantly, will we know something has changed.

We need interest free credit for that.

Not Gold.

  Posted by olde reb on 12/16/11 11:23 PM

Three points:

It would have been interesting to graph the prices of gold/stocks/margin changes.

MF Global confiscation of client assets has been linked to large positions of commodity contracts coming due that could not be filled--JP Morgan alleged to be involved. The effect on the price of gold would be ????

When gold gets to $5000 plus and the government needs money and puts a 100 percent tax (or fine/confiscation)on the sale, how can an individual profit?

And a fourth issue; The Fed does not print money. The Fed buys FRNs from the Treasury: $48.07/ thousand for $1 FRN; $117.98/thousand for $100 FRN (2010). But FRNs are not money; they are a legal tender (an IOU that you must legally accept that used to have the inscription "redeemable in lawful money") denominated in dollars. Title 12 section 411 clearly stipulates: '(Federal Reserve notes) shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States… or at any Federal Reserve bank.' Good luck with that. Ref. RIP OFF BY THE FEDERAL RESERVE, Click to view link

However, the Fed does create book-entry fiat money.

  Posted by canuck on 11/23/11 07:53 PM

Anthony Wiles commentary fails to mention the cause of $800.00 golds demise in the 1980's whioh was the rise in interest rates that no longer made investing and owning gold profitable.

  Posted by Robert Eastman on 11/22/11 04:47 PM

The biggest mistake most people make is not understanding the value of a dollar (USD). Growing up we've heard this expression multiple times as our respected elders tried to instill in us a sense of monetary responsibility... encouraging us to eliminate waste in our lives.
To get a truer handle on the value of today's fiat currency I refer back to my days as a teenager in the mid 60's working as a "gas-station pump-jockey" in suburban Chicago earning $2/hour. At 30 cents per gallon, 1 hours worth of work would buy me 6 and 2/3 gallons of gasoline... the product I was dispensing. At today's prices it takes $23 to $27 (@ $4/gallon) to purchase the same amount. Adults working in gas stations today doing similar work make $8-$9/hour... the equivalent of a couple of gallons of gasoline (or the same as making 60 - 70 cents an hour in the 1960's... for which even kids wouldn't work {that cheap}... "in the good-old days!")
Another way of comparison... in the later 60's and early 70's I had my own service station and I paid my mechanics about $5/hour. At $35/ounces for gold... A mechanic could take a day's pay and buy an ounce of gold. At today's price... a mechanic would have to make more than $200/hour to be able to buy an ounce of gold (with 1 days pay). Most mechanics average about $20 to $25/hour so it takes as much as 2 weeks pay (instead of 1 day's pay) to buy an ounce of gold. When you consider the fact that mechanics must be higher skilled to repair today's automobiles and tools are much more expensive (ie: $100k in tools needed)... even these highly trained/skilled workers are bearing the brunt of the systemic corruption and mis-management of the government/central banking system!
When discussing the (lack of) value of the US Dollar, many like to say that the "Federal Reserve Note" has lost 98% of its value since its inception in 1913... 98 years ago. I guess people like to say that because it makes them "feel better," but the reality is... the US Dollar has lost 98% of its value in the last 40 years... as measured against gold!
Does anyone really wonder WHY the folks are taking to the streets shouting "throw the theives out/get rid of the system!?!"
Maybe someday we'll all wake-up and quit buying the BIG LIE about "how valuable" the US Dollar is.

  Posted by zebblanc on 11/22/11 01:23 PM

Posted by Dilence Sogwood on 11/22/11 09:21 AM
Ok, I agree with most of your article, but the absence of a black market (ahem free market) indicate to me that there is little arbitrage between the true price of gold and the stated price of gold. How would explain this?

According to the experience of an Argentina "crisis" survivor the black market won't happen until after the devaluation/inflation/event and then it will proliferate. People will become very adept at following the value of PM and will barter/trade all kinds of PM based items, coins, jewelery, etc.
Side story on Argentina: women stopped wearing jewelery based in PM due to Argentina being reduced to a state of anarchy after the "crisis". An industry of making women's jewelery of steel was generated.

  Posted by Dilence Sogwood on 11/22/11 09:21 AM

Ok, I agree with most of your article, but the absence of a black market (ahem free market) indicate to me that there is little arbitrage between the true price of gold and the stated price of gold. How would explain this?

  Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 11/22/11 08:51 AM

Posted by bob on 11/21/11 07:18 PM
[I sure hope they don't. I don't want any A-10s shooting at me.]

Now, you are talking about a civil war. The Law & Order institutions do not function any more during a civil war. Any law-enforcement officer will be against 25-50 armed civilians. He also has to protect his own family living amongst these armed citizens.

By the way, this A-10 pilot will have a second thought before bombing his own neighborhood or even his own town.

Finally, the USA is not a Libya. One cannot import enough "revolutionaries" from abroad to kill its own citizens.

It was just a quick response bob. I do not think we will have civil war, at least not to the point of the military mowing down civilians with heavy weapons. That said governments do all sorts of things to keep power and our present admin. is certainly not averse to stuffing their enemies in holes, nor are certain shrieking harpys in slightly lower places.

There are only a few police who patrol anywhere near where I live and I am glad to have them around. If higher authority decides to send them to arrest me for anything that I do not consider wrong I won't be so happy. You can be sure that most Germans in the Third Reich just wanted live their lives, yet they served the power that was. The "crackdowns" may seem minor now, but I doubt that will remain the case. You may very well, some time in the future, be conflicted about how best to uphold your oath to defend the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. I myself have taken an oath which includes that portion of the one you took. I hope never to be conflicted about it myself.

  Posted by Dilence Sogwood on 11/22/11 08:43 AM

Mr. Wile - I am just curious. Your photo looks like a painting of Paul Revere. What's up with that?

  Posted by Bischoff on 11/22/11 02:03 AM

Posted by LokiVerloren on 11/19/11 05:17 PM
something that wasn't mentioned that i think is important, the insolvency and thievery going on at MF Global, a major gold futures broker, would have also triggered a selloff/cancellation of gold futures of investors pulling out of this clearly collapsing market.

You are making a good point. Anyone who has been fooled into thinking that gold is just another commodity subject to hedging or speculating, better get their trading agreement out and start reading about the "force majeur" clause.

  Posted by bob on 11/21/11 07:18 PM

Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 11/19/11 04:19 PM
I sure hope they don't. I don't want any A-10s shooting at me.

[I sure hope they don't. I don't want any A-10s shooting at me.]

Now, you are talking about a civil war. The Law & Order institutions do not function any more during a civil war. Any law-enforcement officer will be against 25-50 armed civilians. He also has to protect his own family living amongst these armed citizens.

By the way, this A-10 pilot will have a second thought before bombing his own neighborhood or even his own town.

Finally, the USA is not a Libya. One cannot import enough "revolutionaries" from abroad to kill its own citizens.

  Posted by josejoe on 11/21/11 05:52 PM

i certainly believe your warning to go lightly in whatever direction you decide in regard to precious metals. conspiracy theories or not, the banking cabal worldwide has been working hand in hand for many, many years. don't underestimate their underhandedness!

  Posted by chad2 on 11/21/11 01:25 PM

This is the twitter generation. Like put a conclusion in there and put it in the begginning. Gold is following equities, good! Gold is going down with the rest of commodities due to deflation. I hope that was your conclusion. We are in a deflation depression like the 30s. Really, what more is there to say? Money printing won't work as yields will just go higher and governments will just go bankrupt faster. The party is, well, over. Next: New world order.

Reply from The Daily Bell

Like we believe that whether or not the vast majority choose to gain their wisdom from soundbites, we like tend to like think that it might be like kinda neat to actually like discuss things from a like deeper perspective. You like?

  Posted by Bluebird on 11/20/11 09:10 PM

Posted by Bischoff on 11/20/11 03:06 PM
Hello Bluebird,

You understood me correctly. The value of the USD does lie in the fact that a country's oil bills are payable in USD. Therefore, a country which imports oil must have USD on hand.

Let me give you some background. After President Nixon in 1971 suspended redemption of the USD for gold, the value of the USD plummeted. Until 1971, the USD was the only redeemable currency in the world. The U.S. had promised at the end of WW II in Bretton Woods, NH to exchange the USD for gold for any foreign central bank at the fixed rate of 1/35 of an ounce of gold for $1 USD. In 1971, President Nixon defaulted on this promise.

Shortly thereafter, the Saudis raised the price of oil/barrel, gold started trading at Toronto, CA, and by 1979 the value of the USD had sunk to 1/800 of an ounce of gold from 1/35 of oune of gold in 1971. With gold gone as a fixed standard to measure the value of the USD, all currencies in the world started to float against each other. There simply was no longer a way to gauge and evaluate any financial information. The world currencies were like ships caught in a taifun, wildly bobbing up and down, while they were each trying to fix their position by looking at the other bobbing ships.

When Paul Volker came in as Fed Chairman in 1979, given the wildly fluctuating FX markets, he decided to encourage the purchase by other countries of USD denominated Treasury to greatly increase the interest rate. Under Fed Chairman Volker, the prime interest rate went to 16% and the general interest rate went to 21%. However, Volker knew that this high interest rate could not be sustained. Since crude oil was a basic commodity needed by practically every country in the world, the U.S. approached the Saudis for a deal in 1980. Saudi Arabia is the marginal cost oil producer (nobody can produce crude oil as cheaply as the Saudis), and by this fact, the Saudis control the world crude oil price. (They do it through OPEC)

In 1980, the U.S. and the Saudis made an agreement which required the Saudis to quote crude oil exclusively in USD. In turn, the U.S. promised the Saudi Royal family that it would guarantee the free flow of oil out of the Persion Gulf, and anywhere else on the world oceans where it counted. Furthermore, the U.S. Treasury promised to recycle the Saudi "petro" dollars through "bullion" banks.

This is some background to explain how the irredeemable USD became the world reserve currency. The USDs, held by foreign countries as "reserve" to pay oil bills, are like checks which were issued, but which are never cashed. As long as the Saudis keep quoting oil in USD, and as long as the U.S. can guarantee the free flow of oil out of the Persion Gulf, the USD will have value.

When the U.S. goes to war, there are always several reasons. Without doubt, one reason why the U.S. is in Iraq, Kuwait and Afghanistan is to insure the free flow of oil throughout the world. This insures the value of the USD. Anything which hampers the performance of the guarantee to "free flow" of oil saps the value of the USD.

Now it's time to address myself to your specific questions.

The value of the USD is still relatively secure. There is presently no alternative currency which could replace the USD. The primary support under the value of the USD is the strength and reach of the U.S. military. There is no rival to the U.S. military. Iran is trying to gain leverage by developing nuclear weapons. However, from the background I gave, you can clearly see why the Iranians will never be allowed to have nuclear weapons.

You don't EVER want to use gold to barter. Gold is Money. The "money system" (about 3,000 years old) is a step up from the "barter system". If no one will accept USDs, barter with pickles or anything else, but NEVER with gold. If you are concerned about liquidity (having a readily accepted means of exchange) should the USD collapse, buy a bag of junk silver (pre-1964 dimes, quarters and half-dollars), but not more.

If you buy gold with USD, you safeguard yourself against the capricious issue of irredeemable USD. In essence, it does not matter how many USDs you give up for an ounce of gold, though fewer is better than more. You must understand that gold holds its value, the irredeemable USD does not. IOW, when the "price" of gold goes down, the value of the USD goes up and vice versa. From this explanation, you can see that "buying" gold for savings is right at any time.

There are only two types of currency systems. One which is based on a currency created under the Real Bills Doctrine RBD) which is "redeemable" in gold. The other is a central bank currency which is created against debt, and which is "irredeemable".

The one currency is based on a positive value. It involves no credit or debt. Savings (gold) are controlled by individual savers. They set the bond interest rate by their willingness to give up their gold savings for investments in bonds to earn interest.

The other currency is based on negative value. It is created by monetizing debt. Taxpayers must constantly be settled with debt in order to make the system work. After several decades, the compound interest expense invariably spins out of control, and the irredeemable currency goes bust.
It is a group of individuals in the Federal Open Market Committe of the central bank which decides the bond interest rate. Their decision is influenced by politicians and special interests. The "average" saver has no influence on the central bank bond interest rate, whatsoever.

The irredeemable USD has now gone defunct, though it still has value as the world's reserve currency. The only solution to the problems of the "irredeemable" USD is a return to the steadiness of the "redeemable" USD. This however means that the present monetary elite will lose control over the bond interest rate. A return to the "redeemable" USD requires the mobilization of gold savings to be invested in the Real Bills market for discount earnings, or investing in banks as part of equity, or as debentures.

The government, or the special monetary interests, will not push to confiscate gold. Today's situation is the reverse of the situation in 1933. However, the special interests do not want to see the average saver acquire gold. Gold is bankers' money, and these central bankers who must return to banking under RBD will try everything to discourage you from buying gold with irredeemable USD. If you have gold, they will try to persuade you to sell your gold by manipulating the "price" of gold downward.

Any time you decide to put "income" away for savings, you should realize that you cannot save "income". With income it is, "use it, or lose it". (Its like saving loaves of bread for decades to have something to eat in old age.)

If you want to save, you MUST do so with GOLD. It doesn't matter what you pay for it. (Though as I said, fewer USD is better) The price should not be a concern to turn your USD income into gold savings. Savings are something you will not touch until old age, or in case of a medical emergency.

When the USD returns to being a redeemable currency, you can take your gold savings and buy gold bonds to earn interest, you can invest in banks for dividends or you can invest directly in the Real Bills market to earn a discount.

The monetary elite will try anything to limit the widespread ownership of gold. They will interfere in the "gold market" to drop the price of gold (google GATA to see how it is done). They will propagandize the population to say that gold is a barbaric metal and that it is archaic to "invest" in it. In these DB threads alone, you can see how successfully this propaganda is working.

I find you an alert, common sensical woman, and I am pleased to take the time to explain "gold" to you. This explanation might be even more than you bargained for... ..

Bless your heart, this was great! Of course I had heard all this before, but I "filed it away" in the grey matter as unimportant and was having trouble "digging it out" for remembrance. Thank you so much. You are a very patient man and I appreciate this.

I do have some junk silver and other "barter" items, but all the talk of gold had me wondering if maybe I needed to do more. I am just concerned with surviving, not making a profit or getting rich and so your reply helped tremendously. My husband is preparing to retire right away, but I have kids to consider. He and I both have adult "children" (30-somethings) plus 2 at home, the youngest (12 yo) also has the leukemia. A lot to think about. I will ponder on your reply. I will probably purchase some gold for their retirement. My junk silver (and pickles) ;-) etc may get us through. Thank you again.

  Posted by Saintpaulia on 11/20/11 05:43 PM

Posted by zebblanc on 11/19/11 08:47 PM
The elves are going to shut us down for getting off subject, but the following advances the concept of barter. PM is the ultimate barter item . . . but . . .
I am converting an old pickup to burn wood gas (WWII "technology") and will tee off its gas producer to run my genset, which powers the well. I store 500 hundred gallons of propane to run the genset now, and the other utilities, including the hot water heater.
So one of my barters will be hot showers! A shower for one neighbor's eggs and another for herbal remedies from a friend who is a Native American healer.
How many silver dimes will you give me for a hot shower after you have not had one for a week or two?

Dear Zeb White, your wood gas is ok but not the easiest way to go if you have some land to farm. If you live in a forest, well then... But if you can grow some sort of "crop" you can convert that into ethyl alcohol and your pickup can fairly easily be adapted to run on that. Plus you can use what's not converted into the alcohol to feed animals, depending upon the type of crop you choose. See Click to view link

  Posted by dotti on 11/20/11 05:13 PM

Posted by Bischoff on 11/20/11 05:03 PM
Hello Dottie,

The DB editorial by Professor Antal Fekete on 6/15/11 about the "Marginal Utility of Silver" is an interesting read, if you want to understand "silver".

Thanks, Ingo!!! I also enjoyed your post to Bluebird.

I'm trying to make my son (33 yrs old) aware of the benefits of allocating resources to gold.

I'll check it out!

Good seeing you here!!!

  Posted by Bischoff on 11/20/11 05:03 PM

Posted by dotti on 11/19/11 08:19 PM
Okay. Let's see if I understand this.

Silver first. JPM is able to manipulate the price of silver down with the cooperation of the CFTC. Is there collusion here or is it all above board? When the margin requirements are raised, specs are flushed out of the markets, their positions liquidated. BTW, did you note the discourse earlier regarding MF Global? If Gerald Celente's experience was multiplied it could cause lots of gold/silver to go on the market.

I remember reading about the bullion banks leasing gold and selling it into the market. Rates were ludicrous. Of course, in those days people colleced interest on savings. The good ol' days.

Is JPM even trying to cover on the dips? It seems they are not. Will they get away with this forever? Talk about the fox guarding the hen house. Makes me want to liquidaate my few shares of SLV. At least they wouldn't have my shares of silver to kick around anymore.

But. Wait. They'd have someone else's silver--whoever purchased my shares.

I am reading that there is systemic risk in the global banking system. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.

Thanks for your thoughts on this topic. It smells, but it's the world we have to deal in--at least right now.

Hello Dottie,

The DB editorial by Professor Antal Fekete on 6/15/11 about the "Marginal Utility of Silver" is an interesting read, if you want to understand "silver".

  Posted by Bischoff on 11/20/11 03:06 PM

Posted by Bluebird on 11/20/11 11:20 AM
Mr. Bischoff,
Please bear with me as I try to understand you more. The USD is the reserve currency set to oil. What happens if/when oil will no longer accept the USD? If the USD collapses, or becomes worthless, will people be able to use gold as currency or to barter with, in your opinion? If you purchase gold with your paper currency, are you giving strength to the USD? If/ when the USD collapses, will the US government confiscate it from us? SHOULD you buy/hold physical gold to keep you in the rough times ahead? I know I have given you some hard times, but I really am trying to understand.

@Wrusssr, thank you for your clear/helpful post.

Hello Bluebird,

You understood me correctly. The value of the USD does lie in the fact that a country's oil bills are payable in USD. Therefore, a country which imports oil must have USD on hand.

Let me give you some background. After President Nixon in 1971 suspended redemption of the USD for gold, the value of the USD plummeted. Until 1971, the USD was the only redeemable currency in the world. The U.S. had promised at the end of WW II in Bretton Woods, NH to exchange the USD for gold for any foreign central bank at the fixed rate of 1/35 of an ounce of gold for $1 USD. In 1971, President Nixon defaulted on this promise.

Shortly thereafter, the Saudis raised the price of oil/barrel, gold started trading at Toronto, CA, and by 1979 the value of the USD had sunk to 1/800 of an ounce of gold from 1/35 of oune of gold in 1971. With gold gone as a fixed standard to measure the value of the USD, all currencies in the world started to float against each other. There simply was no longer a way to gauge and evaluate any financial information. The world currencies were like ships caught in a taifun, wildly bobbing up and down, while they were each trying to fix their position by looking at the other bobbing ships.

When Paul Volker came in as Fed Chairman in 1979, given the wildly fluctuating FX markets, he decided to encourage the purchase by other countries of USD denominated Treasury to greatly increase the interest rate. Under Fed Chairman Volker, the prime interest rate went to 16% and the general interest rate went to 21%. However, Volker knew that this high interest rate could not be sustained. Since crude oil was a basic commodity needed by practically every country in the world, the U.S. approached the Saudis for a deal in 1980. Saudi Arabia is the marginal cost oil producer (nobody can produce crude oil as cheaply as the Saudis), and by this fact, the Saudis control the world crude oil price. (They do it through OPEC)

In 1980, the U.S. and the Saudis made an agreement which required the Saudis to quote crude oil exclusively in USD. In turn, the U.S. promised the Saudi Royal family that it would guarantee the free flow of oil out of the Persion Gulf, and anywhere else on the world oceans where it counted. Furthermore, the U.S. Treasury promised to recycle the Saudi "petro" dollars through "bullion" banks.

This is some background to explain how the irredeemable USD became the world reserve currency. The USDs, held by foreign countries as "reserve" to pay oil bills, are like checks which were issued, but which are never cashed. As long as the Saudis keep quoting oil in USD, and as long as the U.S. can guarantee the free flow of oil out of the Persion Gulf, the USD will have value.

When the U.S. goes to war, there are always several reasons. Without doubt, one reason why the U.S. is in Iraq, Kuwait and Afghanistan is to insure the free flow of oil throughout the world. This insures the value of the USD. Anything which hampers the performance of the guarantee to "free flow" of oil saps the value of the USD.

Now it's time to address myself to your specific questions.

The value of the USD is still relatively secure. There is presently no alternative currency which could replace the USD. The primary support under the value of the USD is the strength and reach of the U.S. military. There is no rival to the U.S. military. Iran is trying to gain leverage by developing nuclear weapons. However, from the background I gave, you can clearly see why the Iranians will never be allowed to have nuclear weapons.

You don't EVER want to use gold to barter. Gold is Money. The "money system" (about 3,000 years old) is a step up from the "barter system". If no one will accept USDs, barter with pickles or anything else, but NEVER with gold. If you are concerned about liquidity (having a readily accepted means of exchange) should the USD collapse, buy a bag of junk silver (pre-1964 dimes, quarters and half-dollars), but not more.

If you buy gold with USD, you safeguard yourself against the capricious issue of irredeemable USD. In essence, it does not matter how many USDs you give up for an ounce of gold, though fewer is better than more. You must understand that gold holds its value, the irredeemable USD does not. IOW, when the "price" of gold goes down, the value of the USD goes up and vice versa. From this explanation, you can see that "buying" gold for savings is right at any time.

There are only two types of currency systems. One which is based on a currency created under the Real Bills Doctrine RBD) which is "redeemable" in gold. The other is a central bank currency which is created against debt, and which is "irredeemable".

The one currency is based on a positive value. It involves no credit or debt. Savings (gold) are controlled by individual savers. They set the bond interest rate by their willingness to give up their gold savings for investments in bonds to earn interest.

The other currency is based on negative value. It is created by monetizing debt. Taxpayers must constantly be settled with debt in order to make the system work. After several decades, the compound interest expense invariably spins out of control, and the irredeemable currency goes bust.
It is a group of individuals in the Federal Open Market Committe of the central bank which decides the bond interest rate. Their decision is influenced by politicians and special interests. The "average" saver has no influence on the central bank bond interest rate, whatsoever.

The irredeemable USD has now gone defunct, though it still has value as the world's reserve currency. The only solution to the problems of the "irredeemable" USD is a return to the steadiness of the "redeemable" USD. This however means that the present monetary elite will lose control over the bond interest rate. A return to the "redeemable" USD requires the mobilization of gold savings to be invested in the Real Bills market for discount earnings, or investing in banks as part of equity, or as debentures.

The government, or the special monetary interests, will not push to confiscate gold. Today's situation is the reverse of the situation in 1933. However, the special interests do not want to see the average saver acquire gold. Gold is bankers' money, and these central bankers who must return to banking under RBD will try everything to discourage you from buying gold with irredeemable USD. If you have gold, they will try to persuade you to sell your gold by manipulating the "price" of gold downward.

Any time you decide to put "income" away for savings, you should realize that you cannot save "income". With income it is, "use it, or lose it". (Its like saving loaves of bread for decades to have something to eat in old age.)

If you want to save, you MUST do so with GOLD. It doesn't matter what you pay for it. (Though as I said, fewer USD is better) The price should not be a concern to turn your USD income into gold savings. Savings are something you will not touch until old age, or in case of a medical emergency.

When the USD returns to being a redeemable currency, you can take your gold savings and buy gold bonds to earn interest, you can invest in banks for dividends or you can invest directly in the Real Bills market to earn a discount.

The monetary elite will try anything to limit the widespread ownership of gold. They will interfere in the "gold market" to drop the price of gold (google GATA to see how it is done). They will propagandize the population to say that gold is a barbaric metal and that it is archaic to "invest" in it. In these DB threads alone, you can see how successfully this propaganda is working.

I find you an alert, common sensical woman, and I am pleased to take the time to explain "gold" to you. This explanation might be even more than you bargained for... ..

  Posted by apberusdisvet on 11/20/11 02:54 PM

The problem has always been with manipulated paper gold. Fund managers may sell their paper gold all they want, but actual physical gold is way under-represented in portfolios, at least in the West. Less than 0.7% of Western held assets is in gold and that includes jewelry. At the height of physical gold investment that number was slightly higher than 5.0%, and the fundamentals for owning gold now are now many magnitudes of those in past crisis periods.

The elite media, and bought and paid for analysts have tried to overwhelm the public with disinformation; don't be fooled.

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