Thanks Ron; best we stay focussed on the goal, and the journey to it.

There is always H.O.P.E. - Humans Operating Persistent Egalitarianism.

Have a highly enjoyable and safely productive week, thinkers with beneficial beliefs. Thanks DB and all.

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Doti, you're welcome. Tell me if you've heard this tune before;
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I suspect that the very public ends taken against Saddam Hussein and Qaddafi were an object-lesson to other leaders in the Middle-East. Any of them could be next.
There doesn't seem to be any way to stop israel and her bitch. The U.N. won't do it... . nor the EU. China can't. It seems that America wants to make sure that every person in MENA hates her with a passion. That may very well supply the next bogeyman.

The dollar will enjoy a flight-to-safety for a while. After that, investors will desert it. What is happening to Europe will hit in America a few months later;
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With MENA ablaze, America will have to compete with China for a decreasing supply of oil.

America needs to roll-over $trillions of debt. When the bond market blows, nobody will want dollars for oil. If America takes an extra stupid-pill and lights up Iran, the Straights of Hormuz will be closed by the insurance companies. This will paralyze Japan and generally trash economies worldwide. There won't be a bond market surviving.

I don't watch MSM, but I'm suspecting this is not getting lots of attention there.

Danny, thanks for the links. It doesn't look good for the home team.

I'd like to hear what the optimists have to say about this;

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Perhaps the reason there is something to worry about is because not enough perople worried about it.

I suppose that it doesn't hurt to listen to an optimist now and then. I much prefer a realist. Here is a small reality check.
How many died in the great depression?
"Answer:

7 million Industrial (city), 5 million rural, particularly farmers. When the unemployment rate rose to over 19%, within a year it's estimated a combined total of close to 12 million Americans died from starvation."

Read more: Click to view link
That was when 44% or so worked on the farm.

There is NO question on the fate of the Euro. DB and others have speculated that the Euro conversion was a half--done job that was expected to fail. THAT was supposed to open the door later on to a full-on integration.
It can't possibly work. This was well known years ago. There is NO possible way to legislate productivity. Hankell made it painfully clear;
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Y'all can sit there and think happy thoughts.
GOV didn't build the FEMA camps just for exercise. Only the lucky and compliant will be allowed in. You don't have to fear being rounded up.
Con--Agra and Archer-Daniels-Midland and Monsanto will be the arbiters of who lives and who dies.
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Thanks for the Dee Hock quote as well as the rest of your post.

I felt somewhat vindicated reading it. Heck, compared with Dee Hock I'm a wild optimist!!!

I don't need a crystal ball to know that our banking system worldwide is on the verge of failure and the PTB will do whatever it takes to prolong its power and be sure that they land on their feet. (Late at night in my world. I almost said "... land with their feet up... ." Funny imagery there.)

Anyway. Thanks much for your post and the quote.

I'm sorry if I misled you. I was not describing my personal situation.

Also, I believe that you are the one who jumped to conclusions "so readily" because I fully believe in diversification. It is what my dear old Dad would have called "hedging" and I remember when he taught me about it in my youth.

You don't seem interested in disclosing details of your plan--and it's probably too complicated to explain here--so I am merely speaking in generalities.

In my situation, I would be happy for a return of 6-9% over inflation, protected from the risks of inflation, deflation, and the mumps. (Sorry, my weird sense of humor couldn't resist that!) I should say, perhaps, regardless what the future brings.

I personally do not need "... vast amounts of new income... ."

Many here at DB know that I am spending my retirement years on a little hillside in Appalachia. I have a very simple lifestyle where I am learning gardening and "making art." I am blessed that I no longer have to "make a living", partly because I don't have lots of needs. I am entirely debt free.

I don't care to make more of my personal finances known to whomever might be lurking here.

It was probably wrong of me to judge your plan when I do not even know what it is. I should have said that I have given considerable thought to what the future holds--and I do not consider that to be a negative--and I see many perils. I do not consider leaving the USA to be an option for myself and many other citizens. I do not worry inordinately, but I do think of what is going on in the world and wonder where we are headed. And as I have already said, I would be happy with a rate of return that surpassed inflation by 6-9% year in and year out, risk free.

Thanks for your comments.

"But the more people are prepared, the more they are likely to have an apocalyptic
way of thinking," said Professor Barry Brummett, of the University of Texas-Austin... ."
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Simple reply: And the more unprepared the more butt naked and panic-stricken one
will be when the sh-t hits the fan... (dollar crash, hyperinflation, food and oil prizes, shortage of food, etc.)

Or Arthur C. Clarke's citation is poetically apt as a response:
Successful living depends upon the masterful administration of the unforeseen.
- Arthur C. Clarke citing Robert Bridges

As Gerald Celente says: "This is not about dark clouds - it is about reality"
When things start to go haywire on a collective scale in many areas, such survivalist approaches will become downright necessity but without the luxury of having been prepared (as in Argentina in 2001). The survivalist approach is increasingly becoming a common sense to a growing number
of people. And whether worry or not, selfsuffiency is a win-win

And that you don't know what will happen in terms of many specifics does in no friggin way nullyfy the generalized probability-wise certainty; namely that the chance for various breakdown scenarios is extremely high.

People will only take action proactively if they are conscious about the obvious coming breakdown scenarios (they are here already). To say, "don't worry" in the face of these is a luxury attitude that is simply unrealistic, contradictory in real life (for 98% of all people), naive, goofy, and to expect people not to worry while simultaneosly being incited to prepare stoically and act from the perception of what is to come (not good in the short run - next 10 years at least) is a idealistic implausible psychological position considering the stakes and human nature, especially when the butterfly-effect will hit the fan big time - EVEN if that position is the most ideal position psychologically. BUT ultimately not to worry in the face of all this demands a fearlessness which is simply unrealistic to expect from 98% of all people.

Better have and not need (foresight and win-win) than need and not have (don't worry, lalala) when TSHTF - complexity,information overload, etc. notwithstanding in terms of specifics.

I am with Dee Hocks on this (inventor and founder of VISA International):

'I think we're on the knife's edge where we're going to undergo cataclysmic
institutional failure. We have it all over the world. Look at some of the countries that are in a state of perpetual starvation and revolution; there's just no present institutional structure capable of dealing with societal complexity and diversity with anything other than more centralization of power and increasing violence and force. So we'll have one of two possible scenarios. The first would be that we'll have a massive series of institutional failures, social anarchy, and enormous societal and biological carnage-far more than we now experience- and then maybe out of that will emerge these new concepts. But I think if we do experience massive institutional failure, the first thing that will emerge, before we see the new forms, is almost total centralization of power and control, which will result in a widespread loss of liberty and freedom. That will last for a while, but it ultimately will not work, much like the Soviet Union. And when that collapses, then we're in for a second period of social carnage that will be unbelievable.'
- Dee Hock, 2002

"Would your plan work for someone who is retired and had depended on income from real estate and the stock market?"

In a word, yes.

However, because the average rate of return above the prevailing inflation rate [at any time] is historically only around 6-9% with the plan, whether the plan would ultimately provide enough income to meet your particular needs would depend on the total amount initially put into the plan[the minimum is $1000] and your subsequent choice of lifestyle. It is designed to provide peace of mind through safety, not vast amounts of new income via increased risk [if a disproportionately large return over the initial sum invested is what you would need].

"Sorry. I find your claim that setting up a plan that covers all the main bases is not attainable for the average retiree."

I'm sorry to see you jump to conclusions so readily, but I suppose that, as long as you are fully aware that you are attempting to predict the economic future by choosing to only invest in certain areas [gold and silver perhaps?], and that you are willing to take full responsibility for your choice, then it really makes no difference how you choose to save. I wish you the best of luck in protecting your hard-earned wealth. Regards, onebornfree.

P.S. there is no long term historical data [that I am aware] of that demonstrates that the ownership of real estate is a surefire way to beat the effects of inflation.

OBF: "... it is actually fairly simple to set up a stable, none-predictive, self-managed long term savings plan that covers all the main bases [i.e. inflation, hyper-inflation, disinflation, deflation, tight money, good times], and that still manages to make consistent gains in value over the long haul [regardless of economic climate]... ."

Would your plan work for someone who is retired and had depended on income from real estate and the stock market? Or are you thinking of those who are still in the income-producing years?

For one who has ample resources, like Mr. Holland (or you?), it would certainly be possible to hedge so that you are secure in an environment of hyper-inflation or deflation or other circumstances. For many of us, we have to decide where our main vulnerability lies and protect against that. Traditionally, the way to protect against inflation was ownership of real estate. That no longer seems to be a good idea. Many people counted on income from dividends or interest payments on their savings. that's not looking so good either. The stock market seems to be hanging by a thread and many are predicting another "crash". There is currently a global banking crisis and recession is being predicted most everyplace. Practically every sovereign nation and most states and municipalities are running on debt.

Sorry. I find your claim that setting up a plan that covers all the main bases is not attainable for the average retiree.

"With a group of children who grow into adults who leave and breath nonagression - "

Thanks, Terry. That's real Thanksgiving time for me...

Legally diversify outside of your home country? Thankful for being born in the U.S.? Where are you going, mon?
Everything is going to be all right, cuz 'i's aw goo', and the sun will eventually burn out also. Social mood will turn once again to positive... ... ... .but don't hold your breath. I know you're just trying to positivify and make us feel better, but it's not easy when you're caught in the 'crux of the biscuit'. Thanks anyway, mon.
By the way, I made a 10'x12' hand-tufted rug of that very Marley picture. Coo'!

LAME. And the link to Lew Rockwell is actually a story by Lawrence Lepard at ZERO Hedge

Mr. Holland,
I don't think you are an unemployed Greek fisherman. You are counting on the "ex machina" values, like the US Dollar or even the EURO to remain in place. Gold to remain free to access and the possibilty to continue to live in a world of "scratch my shoulder and I will scrach your shoulder and we pay each others $10'000.-a month"- in other word a service economy...
What about a return to a capitalistic economy of products with real value added? Would you find your place in such an economy?

Thank You Ron.

Isn't Thanksgiving a fabulous time?

So easy to get caught up in "seemingly important issues" as you wonderfully point out - skewing our priorities. An article such as your's scrambles that all back into perspective.

Again - thank you.

Many cultures and sacred books of the wise have been telling us to give thanks for aeons - yet we still forget - the ol' "the young think they know everything till they grow up and find out they know nothing and should have listened better in the first place."

This reminds me of a little Zen Buddhist book I read many years ago called "Peace in Every Step." In its simple wisdom it stated live in every breath - in every second - in every now moment - in every step you take (for nothing but "now" exists) - and once you get that - then all the other dimensions open up to you.

My old soul read that - and got it. Then my new soul immediately forgot it and I went out and got a job (and I didn't take that book with me to read at lunch - more the pity).

Your article has really done a number on me - I'm singing the "Marley-Man" right now as I write (nasty insistent little tune - how dare it make me happy).

I have been waking up to the DB every morning now for a number of months - a place I grab my research hat from (I came to the DB as research for a business and am currently searching for a product to launch using the Attraction Marketing concept - a concept of marketing on the internet as fabulously tweaked by such 'Net gurus as Mike Dillard - to stabilize my family's income and financial future without having to leave the house too often [read "eliminating overhead" - where everyone else gets your money before you do -

When I got here - well, to say I got knocked over the head and woken up is an understatement.

Free-market thinking is so helping me with getting of my ass and face evrything life is throwing at me - everything! -

I am really thankful for that (I now visit other sites such as TDV and Doug Casey etc. and Lew Rockwell - trying to gain many perspectives on FMT).

I've noticed that almost every response to every posting on every website I visit shows two things: 1) Most responses just parrot what's been said in the article - 2) When an analysis occurs and a contrary position is proposed - that is the only response that is responded to -

And that is good - don't get me wrong - I get why.

But it's like the only important thing is that the one theme - in this case free-market thinking and what the great free-market thinkers say to prove that FMT is THE way etc. ect.

Again, that's great - the website is its specialization.

Free Market Thinking is a great place to circle around - both as a starting point and ending point in my day's activities (for me its new - [soooo new - lots to learn {exciting times for an old dog to learn new tricks!}] -

A new mine to dig in for the illusive motherlode (El Dorado, here I come) -

Sorry, I digress -

Two things occur to me that need to be done BEFORE a free market can be set up (somewhere - anywhere) so the "experiment" can proceed -

Eradicate (as close to eradicate, obviously with total eradication as the endgame) elite-thinking from our children's minds - the "I'm better than you" approach gone.

Difficult to do?

No. I'm sure as a family man you've seen as have I children who play with children - and while agression will rear its ugly head and will be needed to be dealt with - children do not agress over prejudices such as race, colour, creed, and religion -

That's the good news -

The not so good is that that we adults (parents teachers etc.) teach those prejudices (consciouly or unconsciously) -

So where does that bring us?

Well to me its obvious -

We need to start a program (a good place and person to start with might be Stephan Molyneux) and teach or children the non-agression principle -

With a group of children who grow into adults who leave and breath nonagression -

Now that day will be a great Day for Thanks (for me anyway).

Without the nonagression priciple at work as an underlying principle - adults will continue to squabble over who can best quote what what expert to make a (their usurped? point -

And that to me is just circular (whether it be a Lamborghine doing donuts (free-market -thinking) or an old souped-up Chevy (regulatory democracy/mercantilism) - spinning your tires is spinning your tires.

To a Mohandas Movement and a Gandhi Outcome!

(Gandhi was a great walker - I wonder if he ever drove in a Lamborghini and spun tires when he studied in England to be a lawyer - the moment when he realized his true calling? - hmmn [ now there's some useless thinking for you -

Best - T.

P.S. "Every little thing... . gonna' be alright... ."

When storm clouds are on the horizon, one does well to worry about them enough to batten down the hatches. Economic preparation? Easy to describe:

1) get out of debt
2) establish enough gold and silver reserves to cover a year's income
3) lay in sufficient survival supplies

If you've got that handled, the need for fret and worry will pass away.

CORRECTION TO PREVIOUS POST:

my last sentence should have ended :... " and without any pressing need to buy and sell investments on a regular basis. See: Click to view link
, regards, onebornfree.

" for some of us, trying to anticipate the future is a way of rationally trying to protect funds that we count on to secure our future. "

But, surely, if the reality is that neither yourself [nor anyone else] can reliably predict the economic future, then there is nothing really rational about "trying to protect funds that we count on to secure our future" by attempting to so do ?

Which surely means [logically speaking], that in so doing [i.e. trying to anticipate the economic future], a person is taking unnecessary, dangerous risks with money they cannot afford to lose.[i.e. " funds that we count on to secure our future. " ]

I would maintain [and have done so at this site since "landing" here about a year ago, despite mostly ongoing ridicule from various DB moderators], just like Mr Holland, that it is impossible for anyone to consistently and reliably predict future economic events, [in short, because of the reality of what markets actually consist of ].

I have also repeatedly claimed both here and elsewhere that is not even necessary to _have_ to try [ to predict future economic events] , and that it is actually fairly simple to set up a stable, none-predictive, self-managed long term savings plan that covers all the main bases [i.e. inflation, hyper-inflation, disinflation, deflation, tight money, good times], and that still manages to make consistent gains in value over the long haul [regardless of economic climate], thereby allowing individual savers to relax and get on with the rest of their lives without needing a money manager, without the need to constantly worry/watch markets and market updates on TV or the internet etc., and without any pressing need to buy and sell investments on a regular Click to view linke: Click to view link
Regards, onebornfree.

Read this and weep:

"Hours after an Aug. 15 meeting with Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke in his office, Nancy Lazar made a hasty call to investor clients: The Fed was dusting off an obscure 1960s-era strategy known as Operation Twist.

The news pointed to a boom in long-term bonds.

It was a good call. Over the next five weeks, prices on 10-year Treasury bonds soared, offering double-digit returns in an otherwise dismal year.

By the time the Fed announced its $400 billion Operation Twist on Sept. 21, the window for quick profits had all but slammed shut.

Ms. Lazar is among a group of well-connected investors and analysts with access to top Federal Reserve officials who give them a chance at early clues to the central bank's next policy moves, according to interviews and hundreds of pages of documents obtained by The Wall Street Journal through open records searches. Ms. Lazar, an economist with International Strategy & Investment Group Inc., wouldn't comment for this article.

The access is part of a push by hedge funds and other traders to get more information about the inner workings of government. Developments in Washington have become more important after the financial crisis in 2008 spawned new regulations and a stronger hand by lawmakers in businesses...

Such talks are perfectly legal but create a delicate dance for the Fed, which tries to sate its need for information to help guide monetary policy without giving Wall Street an unfair advantage over Main Street.

Mr. Bernanke discusses only matters already public, a spokeswoman said. But hedge fund managers and Wall Street executives who meet regularly with him and other Fed officials-both in his office and through advisory committees-say they get valuable insights during the face-to-face talks.

"It's like an inquisition, they have a topic," said Laurence Fink, chief executive of investment-management giant BlackRock Inc. "By the questions they ask, by definition, you know what's on their mind."...

Mr. Fink had phone calls and meetings with Fed officials ten times over the past two-and-a-half years, according to their calendars and open records requests. He said most of the conversations related to BlackRock's role as a paid adviser to the New York Fed about complex financial structures formed during the financial crisis.

New York Federal Reserve Bank President William Dudley also meets regularly with investors, both in his office with individuals and in committee groups. The New York Fed, one of 12 regional banks that constitute the Federal Reserve System, has the strongest ties to investors because it conducts the Fed's bond-market transactions...

Over the past two-and-a-half years, Mr. Dudley has had dozens of private meetings, according to his calendar, which lists SAC Capital Advisors, Citadel Investment Group, Duquesne Capital Management, and Tudor Investments, among others. Lloyd Blankfein, chief of Goldman Sachs Group Inc., and Mr. Fink, of BlackRock, also had private meetings, according to Mr. Dudley's calendar...

Worries about Fed access surfaced a year ago. On Aug. 18, 2010, former Fed governor Laurence Meyer, who runs a research service predicting and analyzing Fed actions, told clients in a note the central bank's "bazooka is loaded" to buy bonds to stimulate the economy.

The note described how the Fed's "doves," members inclined to ease monetary policy, had said the Fed couldn't "sit on its hands," according to Mr. Meyer's account. An Aug. 20 note included some specific information about the Fed's balance sheet.

A week later, Mr. Bernanke said during a speech in Jackson Hole, Wyo., that "policy options are available to provide additional stimulus" to the economy. Stocks rose on the news, which by then had given Mr. Meyer's clients plenty of time to profit."

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