Agreed.

the drop out option. still better than the romney lap dog option.

And I am leaning 3rd party. final answer.

So, now that I know what I feel, it has got to be third party or just droppong out of the race and no endorsement.

It is hard to know what is best... . Unless you are bernanke. i kid.

All i do know is that i won't be voting for romney. my integrity and myheart deserve better. and in that vein, i hope ron paul doesn't run with him, because then i will think he sold out. Endorsing Romney? This would make me very sad.

I agree. 3rd party would give us a legacy. But then again, maybe republicans can too. there are many "liberty candidates" in 2012.

(Sorry I posted accidentally)

What about cabinet positions? Look at Colin Powell or Hilary Clinton. How about the lesson Crowley learned when he disagreed with The President?

See, the only position with power here is in fact The Presidency. Nothing else matters. Ron Paul in the cabinet and Rand in the Vice Presidency will not have any real power.

So what happens if Romney taps a Paul to be Vice President and we elect Romney because of that? This is the question you fail to answer. This is my hypothetical answer, and I hope you disagree and can show me the light.

Ron and Rand Paul become part of the establishment Mitt Romney organization. they are used to garner votes and lend integrity to the campaign. It works. Then Romney proceeds to disregard his promise to audit the fed, continues to be a big spender, and starts even more wars. Now, The Pauls are in a very compromising position.

They can speak out- but then, at least the person in the cabinet, will get fired.

They can resign- but then that is probably what Mitt wants. He is already elected, he doesn't need them. So now they are just useful fools.

They can go along to get along and keep there mouth's shut dutifully like Joe Biden- but then what happens to the movement? It dies an even worse death than a death by 3rd party. See, now the movement has sold out to the republicans but effected no change. There are no other avenues to pursue. The republican establishment swallows it whole, gets the votes and voters, and there is no future in it for the party. it dies. Game over.

At least with a third party there is integrity and a place for the supporters in the future. If The Pauls are perceived as selling out for power positions, then everything they have built until now is suspect.

Ron Holland,

You make good points and you almost convinced me. Almost. This is my hang up, and if you make a third post on this, maybe you can address it and help me take that final step towards acceptance:

Q: What happens if Ron or Rand Paul is the Vice President?

A: Absolutely nothing.

Look at Al Gore or, even better, Joe Biden if you want to see how much influence a Vice President actully has in an administration. During the Democratic primary debates in 2007 Biden and Obama had significant disagreements, specifically on foreign policy. After Joe was selected have we heard a peep about that? He fell into line.

Wht about cabinet positions.

All childish rhetoric aside, would you really "sit it out" or "waste your vote of 'conscience'" if it meant that you would end your chances of EVER achieving your goals?

I agree with the sentiments expressed in this piece by Ron Holland, and it is a worthwhile tactic to use at the RNC Convention. But should you not get your way, will you totally end your chances for reform by throwing a childish Tantrum? Throwing a tantrum if you don't get your way is an obama tactic! (Although far from my first choice, saying Romney = obama is simply rhetoric, and it is factually incorrect; to those who are truly informed, there is a significant difference).

Ron Holland has formally stated a viable continuing tactic. We can and have materially changed the RNC from the inside, and we can deal with the "old guard" "blue blood" "country club" RINOS and ELIMINATE them from within the party. And, we are on the verge of doing it rather quickly. Why would you throw away all of that hard work?

You cannot, however, deal with the current Communist / Fascist regime supported by a Communist democrat party. Four more years of the current unfettered Fascism will allow them to complete their "entrenchment" and create obstacles that you will not overcome short of outright Rebellion (which can only be accomplished with a standing army, appropriate ordinance and organization... ... do you have that in your back pocket somewhere?!?!?).

"Teaching them (the RINOS) a lesson" will not, in fact, teach them anything because they don't really care; you will derive some short term childish satisfaction and then reap your Bitter Rewards! I am one of many who do not choose to live in the government sponsored SEWER with you!

Pre-emptive final remarks: This input is for the consideration of those who are reasonable and informed. It is not for the childish and emotional who proffer false choices and are fodder for the Fascists and the fascist state.

And once again, it is a Saturday and I must get back to "WORK" in order to generate sufficient funds for State Sanctioned Extortion and hopefully have something left to support my family.

Nah, after what the repugs did to Ron Paul this year, I will never vote 'R' again. Romney=Obama.

The Daily Bell: Dr. Edwin Vieira on a Possible Ron Paul Third Party Run
July 26th, 2011

Introduction: Dr. Vieira holds four degrees from Harvard: A.B. (Harvard College), A.M. and Ph.D. (Harvard Graduate School of Arts and Sciences), and J.D. (Harvard Law School). For over thirty-six years he has been a practicing attorney, specializing in cases that raise issues of constitutional law.

Here is a Daily Bell interview with money expert Dr. Edwin Vieira. He covers many subjects including a possible third party run by Ron Paul. He suggests a Constitution Party/Libertarian Party fusion ticket.

Daily Bell: How about Ron Paul?

Edwin Vieira, Jr: The Republicans will never nominate him. He is as dangerous to them as he is to the Democrats. Perhaps more so.

I hope that, after the Republicans and their lap dogs in the big media perform their usual 'hatchet job' on him, Dr. Paul will run on a 'fusion ticket' of the Constitution Party, the Libertarian Party, and whatever other third parties still desire their members to live in a free society. In that way, he might be able to find a place on the ballot in all or most of the States. If such a 'fusion ticket' drew enough support, it would signal the impending death of the Republican Party. (And good riddance.)

Having decided not to run for re-election to Congress, Dr. Paul has nothing to lose, and can afford to go all out. And he could contribute nothing more valuable than to leave this country with a true 'second' party. Then elections will become real contests between American patriots (the Whites, the traditional color of counterrevolution), and the fascist-socialist combine (the Browns and the Reds).

Only problem with that scenerio is that Obama might use a deep depression as an excuse to institute Martial Law when people start protesting in the streets against high prices and shortages. He then can send Congress and the Supreme Court Home and cancel all future elections until further notice. It's in The Patriot Act that good ol' Bush got passed when the President declares a state of emergency.
If you don't think Obama is a mad man enogh to do it if he thinks his party is toast think again!

I WILL NOT VOTE FOR THAT DEMON ROMNEY even if he asks Ron or Rand to join his ticket. The Devil always wants a compromise when he thinks he's about to lose. We can win third party. I do not want the LP's either they already proved their worth in the last cycle.
Look this is a revolution we do not play their games and we do no allow them to dictate the terms.
Here are the terms: Romney out Paul in or we walk with 12-15% of the Republican vote plus anywhere from 15-18% of independents and about 11% of Democrats. We win the Presidency and no doubt many of the House and Senate elections will be greatly messed up as well.
In any case. Nothing is going to be signed into law that is unconstitutional so Congress will have to overrule every veto which will severely restrict the amount of business they are capable of. Leaving the rest of us the hell alone. Sounds pretty good to me.
Now Quit blathering on about compromising with the enemy, and they are the enemy. They have proven to be so many times and get completely on board or off the ship. Quit trying to lead a mutiny. PAUL OR NO VOTE AT ALL!!!

It's an unfortunate fact that for whatever reason, Americans will not vote in significant numbers for a 3rd party candidate. Forty years of fruitless Libertarian Party activity is proof of this. Forgot about getting people elected to national office. In those forty years how many Libertarian Party candidates have been elected to even local and state offices? How many Libertarian Party dog catchers are out there?

The libertarian agenda has finally found an effective messenger and even prophet in the person of Ron Paul. And he has attracted millions of supporters only because he was allowed to participate in the party nomination debates as a Republican. As much as the MSM had attempted to marginalize his presence in 2008 and 2012, he would have been totally invisible if he campaigned under a 3rd party banner.

Ross Perot received as many votes as he did in 1992 because his message got out to the voters during the presidential debates. A 3rd party run for Ron Paul could be successful but only if he is allowed into the presidential debates. Having learned their lesson with Perot, TPTB will never again allow a 3rd party outsider into those debates. Furthermore, 3rd parties are severely handicapped having to deplete their resources just working to get on the ballot in all 50 states.

Voters have been conditioned for about a century to ignore anyone outside the two party system. Therefore, infiltrating a major party at the grass roots level with young blood, as Ron Paul activists are now doing, is today the only way to eventually implement the libertarian agenda. Demographics are in their favor. The Republican party's statist oldsters will eventually all die off! Infiltration does work. Let's not forget that today's fascist Democratic Party can trace its now toxic bloodlines back to Thomas Jefferson's Democratic-Republican Party. A Trojan horse strategy can succeed where a 3rd party frontal assault will certainly fail.

Ron Paul's libertarian message, especially this past year, has come very far, and a payoff should be expected. If Romney and his backers seriously want to beat Obama, they must placate the large Ron Paul vote. Campaign promises of any sort will not work with this group. How have his antiwar, pro civil liberties promises served President Obama's betrayed supporters? A cabinet position for Ron, Rand or anyone of their partisans, even if approved by a hostile Senate, is insecure. An independent minded cabinet member can be fired at the whim of the President. The only acceptable concession to the Ron Paul swing vote is a libertarian as Romney's running mate. Fear of his libertarian VP dropping out and then losing to Obama when the Ron Paul voters sit out the election, would in itself have a moderating influence on Romney's campaign rhetoric.

True, once in office the VP officially has little to no power, yet it still would be the highest profile platform to date from which libertarian ideas can be loudly communicated and for at least four years. Furthermore, what can a President do to shut up a VP who speaks out against administration policy? He can't fire the VP as he can an appointed official. A thorn-in-the-side, loud mouth, dissenting, VP would truly be a political freak who would, for that reason, garner lots of media attention which is exactly what we want for libertarian ideas. It's not the presidency, but do libertarians really want to go back to ineffectively wandering around in the political wilderness waiting for a 3rd party messiah?

A VP who repeatedly condemns unconstitutional administration policies could even have a moderating influence on those policies. Americans and their MSM love spectacles. What can be a bigger spectacle than a VP Ron or Rand leading a protest march on the White House! Would President Romney even be tempted to trigger such embarrassing insider opposition to his administration?

So, with all this in mind, I don't think that a VP slot for either Ron or Rand would be the betrayal of liberty that many libertarians fear. Handled skillfully, together with the grass roots infiltration of the Republican Party by Ron Paul partisans, it can represent a major move forward for libertarianism and a springboard for a libertarian President in 2016.

The decision is up to Romney and his handlers. Politicians are notorious for their short time horizons. Do Republicans want to win so badly in November that they would allow a Trojan horse to help them do so?

Once again, reluctantly, I will point out that the Christian Covenant is the only viewpoint that represents a comprehensive solution. It is eternal as it is based on a trinitarian God, three persons in one. Our bottom up form of government fits. The collectivist form is directly counter to it and therefore is easily identified by libertarians.

But many libertarians see anarchy as opposite to collectivism and they raise the invidividual to sovereignty. I've seen it stated. There's no reason to name names; it's part and parcel of a fiercely held worldview. It leaves out the unity of our society and explains the structure for harmony without coercion or manipulation.

The US Constitution names three entities and following the covenantal pattern it would work smoothly if understood and believed. The three parts should work together for the good of all. Congress writes the laws, the judiciary follows the Constitution and judges are judges in terms of the Constitution and do not usurp the assigned jobs of the legislative branch. The executive conducts the affairs of governing.

Because the covenant concept is missing today and fought against today, the system devolves into a brawling match. Elitism shatters the covenant and seeks control of all events of life. Each and every activity of man is politicized.

The media has lost it's place as the fourth estate. It is now part of our problem. The Journalists Creed by Walter Williams begins "I believe in the profession of journalism. I believe that the public journal is the public trust" and later says "That journalism succeeds best, and best deserves success, that fears God and honors man." That creed is dead in American journalism today and I have traced that back to the "perception is reality" mantra used press in the early 90s when I first got cable TV.

The covenantal Christians I know are Ron Paul supporters. They recognize Ron Paul as an honest man who is committed to uniting the people under the Constitution that gives them freedom to live peaceably with their neighbors and prosper as God gives them the talents to purses their gifts. Those are foreign concepts to many libertarians. God is not necessary and to be avoided by some. "Love your neighbor as yourself" includes them whether they accept it our not.

The neocon camp gives lip service to God and demolishes the covenant. They convert the great commission to "go forth with thy guns and thy rockets and smash thine enemies until they submit." Hardly represents the covenant view of "as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." That is not isolationist which I have heard Ron Paul described during caucuses.

At the same time the covenantal Christian is not one to capitulate to collectivist solutions for the world. We know the ruler of all things visible and invisible and do not shrink from basic beliefs or abandon the field to detractors. The difference between us and a hefty portion of libertarians is that we draw our strength from the Creator.

@ Agent Pete 8

"Is sugar printed ?"

Good question. Consult Diebold.

Is sugar printed?

Uh Doctor,

Should I put a red or blue band-aid on the gangrenous maggotty roadkill specimen?

Sorry, but keywords are "horse, gate, open, bolted, already".

But to find the lasting fix - it will come from somewhere other than the usual clone-fast clown-fest holdings, despite Dr Paul's Libertarianisms.

bob, I didn't say we shouldn't use civil disobedience. What I'm saying is, we need to work inside the GOP and, yes, sometimes (probably a lot, especially at first), be very "disobedient".

However, being disobedient outside the GOP will not help things. About all it's done for blacks is get them a lot of government handouts... basically, placating them into being "obedient" modern day slaves.

"I agree the best way (likely the only way) to fix things is to take control of the Republican Party from inside." WOW!

How do you intend to do it? After all, people are not sharing "the GOP Party ideas and rules" will be just prevented from attending & participating in the Party events. Their credentials will be denied and security officers will escort them out explaining to these fools & idiots that the next time they will be arrested. And yes, the media will either ignore these 'dissidents' and/or call them hooligans and domestic terrorists. Remember, all these Party events are just entertaining and the show must go on.

Oh yes, blacks in America did not gain anything by joining and transforming the major political Parties but rather by FIGHTING for their rights using civil disobedience and other 'unconventional' means. Slaves never gain their freedom by joining their masters' political Parties. They get their freedom by "other means"!